Some of you have questioned why I said Tamil is dying?Tamil is dying since
1)We dont have literature in Tamil now.Our current great poets are the likes of vairamuthu and vali who write about simran and jothika.Movie field has murdered tamil.Where are poets?where are philosophers like water flow we dont have anyone left now.who was the last tamil philosopher we had?After adi shankara i can see none.The current philosophers(!!!!!!) we have,are nothing but comedians.
2)The last great Tamil poet was barathi,although you can accept barathi dasan to an extent.How famous are others?What have they contributed to world literature?
3)Our arts are dying,our poets are dying,our novels are dying,our literature is dying.Where is the great tamil novel after ponniyin selvan?Sandilyan was nothing but XXX stuff.Vairamuthu's award winning poems are virtually useless and will sell only between gummidipoondi and marthandam.They wont even sell there.
4)Without arts a language will die.Ours has stopped producing arts.We have accepted vadivelu and Ajith as our cultural ambassadors.We have given gollywood our cultural ambassador status.tamils are no more intellectuals.we are nothing but fools who are ready to make simran our next chief minister.our poets are useless,our novelists are worthless,our dramas are useless,our movies are junk and kuppai,our philosophers are copycats,our politicians are goons,,,from where will the language live?
In a preface to one of his novels, Sandilyan said that "What is literature will be decided later by generations to come. For now we should help books..
It is a morphing and evolution of culture and civilization:
My dad liked "Papanasam Sivan" and "Thiyagaraja Bahavathar" For him, it was literature. For him the later were all junk.
I liked Kannadasan, Jayachandran and Vani Jayaram. The rest all seemed unworthy until I found new meaning in the songs of "Autograph". I leart that there is a learning everywhere, if we take a close look at it.
My son ( who is 7 years old ) doesn't have any interest in movies or movie songs. For him, literature is nothing more than Cinderallas, seven dwarfs and Athichudi. I'm just waiting to see how his generation evolves ...
Tamil is a living language. It will morph to suit new living conditions and environment and will survive...
Oru mozhi nilaithu niRka, athu piRa mozhi kalappai aetrukkoLLa vENdum. At least, permission'aavathu kodukka vENdum. To put in one word, it has to be flexible. Samskrutha mozhikku intha flexiblity illaathathaal thaan, athu evvaLavu siRanthathaaka irunthaalum, athu paravalaaka upayokathil illai. Intha flexibility kaaraNathaal thaan Aanggilam, hindi, aen Thamizh kooda inru nilaithu niRkiRathu enbathu enathu thaazhmaiyaana karuthu.
vijay, I am not saying that we are doing "tamil kolai".I am saying that we are not producing any literature at all.Take the fields of poetry,drama,novels.Forget global contributions,we contributed nothing to those fields globally in the past 1000 years except some very rare individuals.Nothing noteworthy.Atleast talk of contribution to India fields.What has Tamil contributed to the indian philosophy?What did it do to Indian arts and poetry?
If I can list atleast Indian level contributions by tamil I can come out with very few. 1)Bharathi,kannadasan........... 2)Kalki, (jayakanthan??,balakumaran???akilan) 3)Shivaji ganesan 4)periya sankaracharyar,kirubananda variyar(metaphysical philosophers)
Thats all.It ends there.If we see this in global context, what did tamil contribute to global philosophy,global poetry,global cinema,global novel field....we will draw a complete zero.Earlier we had these people thriving.We contributed globally earlier.we dont even do that in Indian level anymore.
Sandilyan can say that "produce books,let future decide what is lietrature".But its like saying "participation is the spirit of the game" and losing always. See each and every fields.See what is the contribution of other languages to it.compare it with tamil's contribution.we will draw a zero in the recent past.
Our novelists are rajeshkumar,pkp,sujatha.where do they stand vis-a-vis fredrick forsyth and jefferey archer?Our philosophers are jayamohan and periyar dasan.Compare them with george orwell and Richard Rorty.Compare vairamuthu and vaali with Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.We are light years behind.
Imagination has died up.creativity has died up.we copy music from hollywood.We copy movies from hollywood.we import ideologies from Russia and America.Thats what i mentioned.I dint say we should write in thiruvalluvar days tamil.write in madras tamil.But contribute to the field.write a ground breaking novel.write a pudukavithai.But contribute to the field.we dont do that anymore.Our arts are dying.Isnt that dangerous?
and comon,creating a tamil keyboard is an achievement?It's a tool.what do you write with that?Thats important.I dint say keep Tamil as pure without other words.Mix,borrow-i dont mind.I encourage it actually.But be creative.Thats missing here.
Usually I am a silent listener. I seldom intrude even in an interesting discussion.
But let us not worry about what is our contribution as "Tamils". Let us broaden our outlook a bit, and think of our contribution to this world as "Indians" - after all Tamils are a part of India and because of bother about "languages" and their independence, the original "Madras" which existed from Chatrapur (in present day Orissa) to Thiruvananthapuram ( in present day Kerala) has been sized down, like many other states based on language.
There were, are and will be contributions, and as many scholars have said, that Time alone can decide.
Let us do our best to the possible extent and leave it to the future gnerations to judge and decide.
In the last 1000 years we have done more than anyother language. we have survived the onslaught of new languages, preserved our heritage and contributed to the indian society. during this period, tamil and hinduism period to far east. we d trade frm persian gulf to china ( rome was in shambles then). most of the paasurams and thevaramas were written in this period. we built more temples than many empires that bulit palaces. and whats more important we are trying bridge the digital divide by making OS in tamil so that people like my parents could use the computer. if u dont call these achivements, what else is achievement? frederick forsyth and jeffrey archer r more famous and rich beacuse evryone reads and understands them including us. if sujatha would write a novel in english, he would certainly beat michael crichton. if some writers r not gud enuf for u, that doesnt mean that they ve nt contributed to tamil literature. what abt periyar, who tried t abolish caste system? what abt g t naidu? what abt our present president?
the list is endless. instead of lamenting tamil is dying, we shd appreciate what others are trying to do.
Thangaprakash, I am talking about literary achievements and you are talking about trade and temple achievements.Just read Forsyth and compare him with any tamil writer and you will know the difference.Translate sujatha and see whether he will sell.He wont.And you compare him with crichton.
Periyar,abdul kalam and GD naidu were philosophers?Call them as social reformers but not as phislophers.social reformers like martin luther king I and II,mandela,ingersoll arent philosophers.
I dont say people who appeal to me are good.I read rajeshkumar ardently and balakumaran too.But I read forsyth and nabakov too and i sense the difference between a literature and junk.I read nietzsche and Rorty,but am still searching for a tamil philosophical work which isnt metaphysical.
I appreciate good work.I will compare kalki with none less than shakesphere.I will compare shankara with none less than socrates.I will compare andal's thirupavai with none.Its matchless.So is thirukural.There can never be such a book ever in any language.
And kindly dont talk OS in tamil as achievement.Its a technological development yes,but im talking about literature,not technology.Im talking about novels,poems,philosophy and arts.Not about trading and os.
mamallapuram,tanjore temple,devaram yes,great works.But when were they composed?how many years have passed away?1000 years.after that what?
I appreciate good work.Im not a pessimist.But I call a spade as a spade.we currently produce tons and tons of junk.
Priya, I think you have raised a very pratical issue. I agree with you. But we not only lack or far behind in language but also economically.A language will prosper if the community prosper economically. The tamils should improve thier standard of living and once achived the level we must not forget our mother tounge. In malaysia, the tamil will start to talk in english once they have reached higher position. They will totally ignore tamil end up the tamil schools attended by low level incomed group only. We must improve our education level, traslate more books in tamils and provide extra knowledge for tamil school children. For example, in malaysia, the chinese schools becoming very popular among other races because by mastering chinese they will have advantage to improve thier living of standard. Why? because the chinese are holding the malaysian economy. And if a chinese become very sucessful in his career or economically they will never forget to contribute to chinese sch ools in what ever manner. In chinese school they not only will concentrate the chinese language but other skills, as well.
When I was browing for music at Tower Records in California, a sales girl of Phillipine origin tried to help me and talked in a fluent Hindi. Surprised by this, I asked her how she learnt it. She said that she learnt from her room mate. She was surprised that being of Indian origin, I dont know Hindi. So I had to explan her. All along, she was thinking that Hindi being the only Indian language. Not only her, many Eurpeans and Americans think of Hindi when they think of India. They dont know the fact that India has many more languages... Such is the might of the propaganda over the decades.
The great east gopuram of Madurai Meenatchi temple was constructed in the 11 - 12th Century. Other gopurams and many structures inside that temple were constructed during 14 - 16th Century.
Almost at the same period, Kasi Vishwanathar temple at Tenkasi was constructed.
The great temple at Tirunelveli was constructed during 13 - 14 century.
There are plenty of big temples at Sivagangai and Kalaiyar Kovil constructed at simillar times which draw least attention these days. You must visit them to see how magnificiant they are.
How about the grand praharam at Rameshwaram, constructed by Sethupathi kings ?
These are some architectural wonders, I can think of, off hand.
Some works like Meenatchi Pillai Tamil, Arunagiri Nathar etc., were written in the last millenia.
So we can't say that not many developments happened in the Tamil land in the last 1000 years.
For a language or culture to evolve, the population must have freedom of expression and development.
During the post sankam "kalabra" period, there was no development in Tamil. Because the society was oppressed. Also during the 16 - 20 centuary, the Tamil land was suppressed by the Telegu, Urudu and English rulers who tried to impose different cultures and limitations.
In the pre-post independance era, many great people are raised Tamilnadu.
Consider Ramanujam whose work is still breaking heads of mathematicians at high places. Consider G.T. Naidu he is the Thomas Alva Edison of Tamilnadu. For architecture, we have Ganapathy Sthapathi, who's work at Kanyakumari - the Thirivalluvar statue on the rock on the sea - you must visit this place to see its might. Have you read the works of Ki. Rajanarayanan ? it is a high class literature.
We have people like Vethathri Maharishi, whom future generations will consider as great philosophers.
Tamil - its people and culture will survive. Now we are into this political gamble of "finding faults at each other" I think it is a temporary drama in Tamilnadu and great leaders will arise and awake the population.
Hi We can't sell if we are poor either. we need to improve ourselves financially... People will only buy when we can show them that tamil has value for money.
How many of us bother to learn Acrican language? Why we need to learn tamil...
When a comunity become succesful. we no need even go out an sell Tamil. People will come and learn..
hi priya u said there r no philosohers like the europeans u read abt. i agree all our philosophers are metaphysical because thats the way we lead our life. give those foregin philosphical work to an indian from a rural village, and he ll throw it away saying it s too material. our way of life is very different from the european philosophies. u cannot compare those with our own. and please dont call any work junk just because they dint pass ur test or dint get ur acceptance. enga oorla naa sinna paiyana irukum pothu ponnar-sankar kathai pathi mulu raathiri paatu paaduvanga, enaku athu than pidikuthu. aana naa karnataka sangeethatha junk nu sonna epdi irukum? ella work um etho oru vagayila tamil ilakiyathuku uruthunaya than iruku. ipo enga oorla yaarum ponnar sangar kathai kekarathu ila. TV oda aathikkam athigam aiduchu. karnataka sangeethathuku kedaikara angeegaaram antha naatupura paatuku en illa? oyilaatam, kummi, kuravai koothu, paavai koothu neraya tamil arts namma gramangala inum vaalnthutu than iruku. ithu ellam nammaloda 1000 varusha pokkisham. aana bharatha naatyathuku irukara respect intha arts ku illa. arisi soru illanu eli kari saaptutu iruka namma vivasayikita tamil ilakiyam pathi enna pesa mudiyum? varumai olinja than entha samuthayamum valara mudiyum. athuku technology development thevai. ellarayum ore naal la english kathuka vekka mudiyathu aana ellarayum computer literate aakalam, thanks to tamil OS. tamil la tamil la eluthi padicha than inimai. english la ipdi eluthina athu kolai. wish i cud soon write a mail in tamil. its been yrs since i wrote in tamil.
Real art forms are inimitable and rare.For example prahatheeswara temple,mamallapuram,ajantha paintings etc.All the gopurams you have mentioned are great.But such structures are built all over the world by all cultures.Ganapathy sthapathy is good.But remember the statue of liberty was built in 19th century itself.Compare both.
Why do we say Tamil is the greatest language in India?we say so since we have masterpieces which no other languages have.We can say "we have kamba ramayanam,thirukural,purananuru,ahananuru prabandam etc.Does any other language possess such master pieces?" No other language in India except sanskrit has literature equaling us.Not a single language.
Take worldwide.Latin,greece,persian,lithuvanian...only these languages can compete with tamil.But of all these languages only Tamil and Lithuvanian are living languages.Lithuvanian language grows by producing arts,while we stagnate
Thats what I mentioned.I only said that we lack philosophers,poems,arts etc.Its an attempt to point out my motherland that it is losing itself to kollywood.Rajanarayanan is good,but he isnt world class.Im not saying this since he writes in tamil.Many indians have shone all over the world by writing in their mother tongue.Tagore,satyajit ray etc.
Ramanujam was great.No denial.But he was in science,not arts.Im talking about arts,not science.and why just ramanujam?we have CV Raman,chandrasekar nobel laurate tamilians.I discussed arts here.
And I deny that we should have freedom to create epics.Many epics were born only in extreme oppressions.Bharathis songs came from prison.Mein kamf was written from prison.Leo tolstoy,maxim karki,carl marx,,,all came under extreme oppression.Rama saritha manas came under mogul rule.Dugaram,ramdoss,vidyaranya all shone during oppression.Grandha saheb came during aurangazeb's oppression.
And the telugu and marathi kings whom you insult patronized so many tamil poets like kalamegam,kumaragurubarar,meenatchi sundaram pillai etc.Krishnadevaraya translated tirupavai in telugu as amuktha malyata.Chatrapathi shivaji came to samayapuram and he did not get up for 1 hr when he saw samayapuram mariamman.he laid at her feet chanting "bhavani,bhavani..."Only british and moguls oppressed us.
under sultanate.Srirangam ranganathar idol was chased all over south india.Only kumara kambana II defeated sultan and captured madurai and reinstated ranganatha.Read "mathura vijayam" and "thiruvarangan ula".The whole story is given there.
I too love ponnar sankar(not the MK version but real version.)I can understand that you are patriotic but that wont win us acclaims.Our language grew by debates and fights.It dint grow by saying "Mine is best.accept it or else..." In tamil sangam every poem will be criticized by poets and onloy the best will be accepted.Nakkeran even criticized lord shivas poem.Even thirukural was criticized.No epic was as challenged as kambaramayana.In the end legend has it that lord narasimma himself accpeted the verses and then only the critics were silenced.
I call the 99% novels we produce as junk,96% poems we produce as junk,100% of dramas we produce as junk,99.9999999999999999% movies as junk,99.999999999% songs as junk,100% of our musicians as junk (except Ilaya to some extent)99% philosphers as junk(jayamohan sounds ok)If you differ disprove me with facts.
hi priya for ur info there s no real version of ponnar sankar. its exists only in songs and dramas. anyway who needs acclaims from people who r not able to understand us? all those poets were supported kings and landlords. they d the time and money to spend. today hardly anyone s those luxuries. being a poet was a full time occupation in those days. bharathi d to die in poverty. do u think anyone can write poems and dramas while their families r goin hungry? all these tamil writers ve other occupation, but they write in tamil becos they want to. do u know for real wat happened in olden days? wat ve are some inscriptions and some olai suvadis. there was bitter poltics bw otta koothar and kambar. we r so hung up on our past that we r refusing to accept the reality. arts and literature will not grow until there s an economic guarantee. anyway who said tamil lives only arts and literautre? wat s tamil done not to deserve a place in science and technology? if we keep on crying abt arts and ignore tech development, then we r denying tamil some space to evolve. it ll exist only books like sanskrit and latin. times r changing and tamil s to change too. we cannot expect poets of old times to be born evry ten yrs. we d one bharathi, kalki and bharathi dasan for last century. someone ll come this century, provided we make the environment conducive.
even in those days the folk songs, probably the more popular variety would have been simple and something along the lines of this only. the masterpieces are painstakingly composed by the poets, and is not in the tamil spoken by the people. Even normal ppl can follow a significant portion of tirukkural(one of the few poems written in simple style), which was written 2000 years back. Which means that spoken tamil hasn't changed all that much; if we were to transported 2000 yrs back, i think we won't have much problem following the tamil. a song being simple and "catchy" is not necessarily bad. it is quite possible that even in those days, "99%" of the stuff was junk; it is natural.
regarding the comparison between sangam era and present, just because a work is tough to follow doesn't mean that it is better (my view). Kannadasan is probably one of the all time greats, because he is able to express dense ideas with simple languages. (on the same note, did you notice forsythe and archer use a language much different than shakespeare?
In my ex Job, I went to Germany where a Tamilian of Srilankan origin worked in QA dept of our company. He was very much keen to talk to me in Tamil. But being so long in Germany and England, his accent became so corrupted that I was not able to follow easily. So initially I preferred to talk in English. But after 2 or 3 days, I got adjusted to his accent.
But he had no problem in understanding me. He said that I used many English words. But I found him to use many Tamil words no longer used here or replaced with English equivalents.
I dont have a comparative knowledge of literature like you. Besides you seem to have done a great amount of ground work and put up expertise. So I buy your idea.
What do you think the Tamils should do to come up in arts and literature ? Today even the serial stories in Tamil magazines are no longer populer and the writers default to 1 page articles. People are stuck to TV soaps and dont even read newspapers.
Where do you live and what is your profession ?
You should join the "Tolkappiar" yahoo group where topics such as Sumerian and linkage to Tamil are discussed by scholars.
Thats a very notable point.the srilankan tamils have their local accent like nellai or kongu tamil but They use more chaste tamil words than us....
The pondicherry tamils settled in france again are a very good example.
The problem with us is so many english nouns are verbs have become part of our lingo.....We cannot speak (or I cannot) speak continously for 1 hour without an odd english word cropping up without prior prepapration(I am not saying the nouns here) Its just become the way of life... Eg: in a conversation you may say romba azhaga irunthathu or may be beautifulla irundathu....where as our eelam brotheres will say vadivamaga or vasseegaramaga irundhathu....
I never meant that we should not use nouns from other languages.Some group members thought that I compare todays tamil literature with yesterdays and find fault with "language".I dont.
Forsyth and Archer use different language than shakesphere.Yes.Kalki used different language from thiruvalluvar.But his was a master piece too.Im not at all talking about grammer.Write in chennai tamil if you want.But produce a master piece.Gana songs by deva is one interesting thing.It isnt a masterpiece but it is a form of artwork,much similiar to the music of african americans in usa.
Our villupattu,karakattam,nattupura padalgal all come in this category.Unique to the culture,an identification of our heritage,but by no means they make us different from other cultures.Since other cultures too have their identity.What differentiates a language from other languages or what makes one language great compared to other language is the master pieces
Greek language can say "we have illiyad and odyssey".English can say "we have shakesphere and bernard shah".We can say "we have thirukural and mamallapuram".Now we talk of great languages.Languages that can boast of such internationally acclaimed masterpieces are hailed all over the world.Such masterpieces differentiate our language from languages like kannada,malayalam,urudu etc.They cannot boast of any such masterpiece.(not to international standards)
But having such masterpieces alone isnt enough.we should produce them constantly.Sanskrit,greek,latin couldnt do it.They stopped producing masterpieces.The last greatest sanskrit epic was written in 14th century by vidyaranya.After that the language stagnated.Once a langauge stops producing great works it stagnates and dies.
If we see english we can see that it produces great arts in every field.Philosophers mushroom,poems flourish,great works jump up and make the language very rich.That language now has surpassed the status of sanskrit in vedic india and tamil in sangam era.Greatest of philosophers,poets,artswork mushroom there.
I dont say you ape them.I only say you produce quality stuff.West writes spy novels.I dont call them junk.They too are art,but see the way they write it.See the effort forsyth puts in for his spy work.Now compare that with vivek,narendran and barath our spy heroes. We will see sea of a difference.
Our current "literature" produces a dream world,dream heroes,dream heroines which moves the audience from real world.Our novels,movies,magazines,news papers all are guilty of this.We have closed the tap on creativity.
A great language should produce philosophers,poets,dramatists,revolutionaries,liberals,art works,novels,poems in abundant.They should keep on mushrooming.In vedic era sanskrit did so.Till 14th century sanskrit did so.Then it stagnated and diminished.I dont want that to happen to tamil.But this situation isnt bunique to tamil.It is unique to all indian languages.
To answer kasirajan who asked me "what should we do now?"-.I will start off with the follows
1)stop watching suntv,moon tv etc and particularly serials 2)Stop watching movies 3)stop reading dinatanthi and cinema magazines 4)Dont watch any movies or buy any cinema magazines
Read great works in english,tamil and sanskrit.Gather lots of general knowledge.Learn about philosophy and arts.If an average tamil reader acquires such discering knowledge the writers and artists are forced to think differently.They have to produce quality stuff.
'arasu' in kumudam now compares simran and trisha.Ask him to compare o'brian in "1984"(Its a novel by george orwell) with anbalagan or O.pannerselvam.He will answer it.But he isnt doing it now because nobody is asking him.He might even be happy to compare O.pannerselvam and o'brian.If the reader develops a passion for arts the media and writers will follow.as long as trash sells you have to produce trash.
And to answer another question by kasirajan, I am doing my degree in statistics in tennessee.My parents were from coimbatore,i have been there so many times.I still remember KG theatre,race course and marudamalai and perur.And I have read ponnar sankar novel too.Probably thanga praksh did not know that in coimbatore ponnar sankar has been published as a novel(in its song form) by the kongu vellala koundas association.
Dear Priya very interesting mail.....there are two sides to a coin....Yes you are comparing the greats of english to the greats of tamil good
we need some background info on that before comparing the two
Tamil is probably the only language more than 2000 years which is still alive and kicking.....The greeks,the sankrits,the latins,the egyptians all have withered in the winds of change...
English just a small fry if you compared it to the antiquity of tamil heritage and they are living in old colonial glory....more areas were under the english rule so more people speak and read the same.
Shakespeare is from 16th century where as thiruvalluvar is from 2bc to 2ad....
The fact a language has withered all the winds of change and preserved its language and heritage and is still spoken is an acvhievement
And I think the greatest achivement is its web presence ...there are so many new thinkers and writers who are presenting their works in the web
The biggest problem is keeping up with the standards of literary,engineering and cultural heights which we achieved when the rest were running naked in the forests... any new work is compared to kambar and ilango and valluvar....
you have missed a few names Bharathiraja....bala vaali you have criticised in one of your other mails...but even a chich can understand his version of ramayanam and mahabharatham which he wrote in Vikatan....
literature should reach the people thats were bharathi achieved where all others failed....
Contribution to global heritage...debatable because you are talking about a small segment language so you cant say it has and hasnt contributed to the world.
Our novelists are rajeshkumar,pkp,sujatha.where do they stand vis-a-vis fredrick forsyth and jefferey archer?Our philosophers are jayamohan and periyar dasan.Compare them with george orwell and Richard Rorty.Compare vairamuthu and vaali with Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.We are light years behind.
Imagin Imagination hasnt dried up its what the requirment which generates the creation.How many in britain and US appreciate the forsyths and clancys...
How many do forsyth and archer write every year?we get only the best even forsyth and archer have dried up...and rejig
Rajeshkumar and PKP reach the masses they reach people in muttukadu to muttam..Sujatha created awareness of science fiction in the nooks and carnies of tamilnadu Dont tell me vasanth ganesh thrillers are incomparable to your mentioned english authors.
Creativity has not dried up its the mass production that decreases quality...without creativity and class Ilayaraja would not be asked to conduct philhormonic archestra or rehmans musicals hog the west end theatres
its just comparing Golf to a ashton martin or ferrari.... one is for the masses and the other for those who can relish and have the ways
A Sethu? a pithamagan?a moonrampirai? avarumaiyin niram sigappu? a iyarkai the list is endless priya...those are gems
An interesting discussion on a matter of deep concern
most of the people seem to be attacking the topic from a confused angle
tamilians are thriving and from all indications they will do even better at the world stage - but can the same be said about their language ?
I am not even concerned about the lack of quality artists / philosophers compared to the past as pointed out by Priya. Every culture has its periods of ups and downs. Anybody can become an average poet / philosopher through serious effort but for a tiruvalluvar, kambar, bharathiar to happen a natural inborn ability is required and that will happen from time to time provided the base continues to thrive - in this case the tamil language.
Tamil is dying because this base itself is getting weaker by the day. The greatness of the language and the unbelievable heights that it had reached even 2000 years back is not being appreciated by the younger generation and the previous generation is hardly in a position to help as they themselves are mostly ignorant of their glorious past. Every school going child memorises meaningless english rhymes but how many of them familiarise themselves with far more meaningful and useful outputs from our forefathers?
Tamil is dying not because tamilians are mastering english language but because increasingly they are mixing english with tamil even for the most simple terms and the majority of the population , unfortunately even the rural ones, are unable to complete a sentence without some english term coming in.
Tamil is dying because your auto driver does not understand "valadhau pakkam thirumbuppaa" and has to confirm "leftaa sir?" because you are more comfortable to say "wife" rather than "manaivi" because "easy" is replacing the tamil word "eLithu" because amma and appa are being replaced by the repulsive mummy and daddy and we can go on and on. The irony of the matter is that tamil in its pristine form as spoken by someone like Abdul Hameed is like heavenly music and he also shows it can be done effortlessly.
tamil is dying because todays tamil paadukaavalars are mostly disciples of Periyar. Since most of the literary output from our past are religious based they have a vested interest in blacking them out
tamil is dying because the child of today is moulded by the television which is in the forefront of the murderous assault on tamil language. If I have the power I will pluck out the tongue of all the tamil murdering comperes especially those from the SUN TV Group.
tamil is dying because globalisation which ideally should have lead to sharing of cultures has unfortunately ( or is it by design?) lead to dumping of junk culture on the tamils from which it may be difficult for them to extricate themselves. This takes us back to my initial point - as the base itself is thus getting destroyed tamil language is hurtling towards its demise.
The descendents of those who nurtured Sanskrit, Latin and Greek are very much there but these languages have withered. Do not be surprised if the same fate befalls tamil language much sooner than your most pessimistic projection.
I feel that we are almost helpless in this regard.
Im not comparing new works with kambar and Ilango.Its like expecting archer and clancy to be like shakesphere.Im not doing it.Im only comparing rajesh kumar,suba,pkp with archer,ciichton and sheldon.I am comparing PT Samy with stephen King.Because you only bench mark with the best.
I am comparing across cultures since that is how things are always done.When thiruvalluvar bought his thirukural to the tamil sangam his work was compared with vedas like this(in thiruvalluva malai)."So far when we compare tamil with sanskrit we couldnt say that Tamil was great since sanskrit had vedas.But now we can compare and say tamil is great since we have thirukural"
So we should compare our authors and artists with the best.Comparing I can only say that we produce "topical trash".Writing for masses is ok.But what do you write for the masses?You feed them foolish fantasy with useless heroes, attractive heroines, cruel villains,helpful poilce inspectors,and a bit of general knowledge(to mask ur guilt) and conduct vetri vilas and call your self "naval king,naval chakravarthy...kavi perarasu..."
Is this literature?Is this writing for masses?
Were you joking when you called BharathiRaja,vaali and sujatha as great contributors?Barathiraja produces trash.16 vayathinile and muthal mariyathi were good,but not great.They were good since he portrayed reality exactly.All other works were porn and trash.I will appreciate his translation of it into poetry but it is just that.It wasnt a great work.
Sujatha is like "kovanandi is king in a nude village".Ganesh and vasanth were just better than hardy boys and nacy drew.Good but not great.Sujatha was writing about S'ilicon sillu puratchi" in 1984 when Bill Gates already become a billionaire in USA.
Pithamagan was good?Baala gives same old wine in new bottle.His nandha was nothing but palaya kanji.His treatment was good,but story,theme?Balas heroes suffer all the syndromes of relular tamil heroes.Hero worshiping(nandha),sacrifice(surya in pithamagan),innocent heroines(laila),revenge(nandha and pithamagan) one hero beating 1000 villians....
Its fantasy work.A Rambo coming and liberating the sufferers and saving the good.He told that in a different way.But its same old wine.And vikram is vettiyan in only the first scence.
Forsyths imagination did not dry up.He takes that much effort to produce one master piece.And archer went to prison.But there are thousand more people to fill their shoes.Writing topical trash every month doesnt make our writers great.
I can criticize iyarkai too.It wasnt that good.It was diferent from the rest but wasnt great.Great tamil films came from the soft pornist barathiraja.Muthal mariyathai.Even though he hero worshipped shivaji in that,the nativity in the movie over shawdows it.In 16 vayathinile he doesnt even do that.There wasnt any hero to be worshipped there.There he worships himself.Thats why its so good.But rest is trash and porn work.
I dint see sethu.Maybe i will get a dvd and see it.
And Dr.Sridhar Rathnam I am a bit surprised by this reply
5)Pay extra 500 rs salary to the poor iyers in temples and ask them to teach thirukural,devaram etc to the kids who come to the temple.
I disagree...I would much rather pay the educated unemployed youth to teach and educate rather than the gurukkals....two reasons ....being gurukal is a profession whether it pays or not its something they have opted there are other choices for them... On the contrary educated unemployed youth should be encouraged to do this...that builts their self confidence and independence and that avoids them getting into the bad ways of naxalism or politics(doing menial jobs for the politicians)and thats the way for tamilnadus and india future
While I dont find any fault with your second line of argument that such a stipend will build the self confidence of the youth, I cannot understand your views on gurukkal.Yes, there are other choices.But why did they opt for this?For their love on religion and our heritage.That made them willingly foresake a bright future and come to this.Since they were willing to sacrifice,is it right to be stringy to them?
Its like saying "Pay less gifts to tamil poets.They have other options.They are not into this profession for money......"
Iyers and poosaris are our heritage. We have to protect them and pay them enough to make them pray lord with a happy face and full stomach for us.Its an insult to our society if they pray for us with an empty stomach.
Many temples have "veda padasalais" where they teach children Thevaram etc., It is a good practice and I have seen a good number of students attending these classes.
In my opinion we should only educate the parents, how to bring up children. Parents give priority to Abacus, carnatic music and dance, but dont think learning literature is also important.
The way literature ( be it English or Tamil ) is taught in school is horrible. Students just memorize the verses and the question and answers without knowing the underlying meaning with an exam centric focus.
Literature should be learnt by grasping and enjoying each sentence, not with a cane and a question paper. There must be ample time to do that. I dont know whether people in the west have time for that or how dutifully that do that.
Today, people in TN just watch "metti oli" or "annamalai" and done with that. For them, it comes with no effort and easy listening. Probably sometime down the line these junk may become literature, who knows.
Gone thru all discussions. Discussing is good. But what about implementation?
Nowadays all parents feel proud if their children converse in english. idhai vida kodumai ennavenral english fluentaga pesa theriyamal irupadhu marriageke oru thaguthiinmaiyaga karudha padukiradhu sila kudumbangalil. Sila youngsters apdi ninaikirargal.
Hi Priya J, UngaLai santhikka nErnthaal, enathu thoppiyai kazhatti marupadiyum aNinthu koLvEn. Ada ennanga appadi paakkareenga. "Hats off to you" appadi'nnu sollarathukku thaan, thoppi etc. ellam sonnEn.
Dear Priya You may be right but I am not wrong It depends on how you see it
In a time and age when all are welcome in all temples and agraharams I mean all Your arguement will work till then.......If you read any Indian paper you still read atrocities commited in the name of to quote you 'Varna dharma'
The first thing that will be taught is the evolution of mankind...The Brahmans came from Brahmas Toungue...The Kshathriyas from his arms...The Banas from his Belly and Sudras from the Feet and the rest were so low that they came from elsewere.....
For their love on religion and our heritage.That made them willingly foresake a bright future and come to this.Since they were willing to sacrifice,is it right to be stringy to them?
Touch choice I cant complain I wake up at five drive 2 hours and operate all day spend 48-72 hours in trot withput sleep in theatres and casualties(thats the reason for the silence) and say I am doing it for mankind..No I do it bacause I love my Job A Job is a Job....No sacrifices
Iyers and poosaris are our heritage. We have to protect them and pay them enough to make them pray lord with a happy face and full stomach for us.Its an insult to our society if they pray for us with an empty stomach.
I dont agree with this statement either but thats my veiw.It was the same poosaris and gurus when they were in prosperous times looked down upon the rest of the society...not long ago...But its a discussio for a different time and place..
I dont rely on a middle man to reach god if I need him I converse with him directly like SVRangarao in Deivamagan is it??
Sorry thats my veiw and veiws of 13 doctors in Birmingham when I spoke to them about your suggestions.
which god denied dalits?God himself came and carried thirupanalvar into srirangam temple.He made the bhramins who refused to let thirupanalvar carry him in their shoulders and enter the temple.So god is not to be blamed for untouchability.Nor too vedas.It was the later day so called bhramins to spoilt our religion by this shameful act.
And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet".Yes they did.But from whos feet?Lords feet.Which is the holiest part of lords body?Its the feet.IN our religion we fall at the feet of lord.Tirupathi balaji always shows his feet to the devotees.baratha carried ram's sandals in his head.
So saying dalits came from lords feet isnt an insult.Even dalits worship feet of lord.IN perumal temples as satari they place lords feet on your head.Mahabali carried lords feet on his head and created onam festival in kerala.
If given a chance i would prefer lords feet.Is that an insult doctor? Its a great honour.
You might not believe in heritage of poosaris and iyers.But millions do.They arent mediators between us and god.They are caretakers of temples.Nothing more,nothing less.
Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their ancestors is not right.can we go to war with muslims for aurangazeb's acts?we cant.Its similiar.
God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son)It was never by birth
This is an interesting discussion.. I agree with you on many points except the religious one.. So decided to jump in..
My comments inline..
> which god denied dalits?God himself came and carried thirupanalvar > into srirangam temple.He made the bhramins who refused to let > thirupanalvar carry him in their shoulders and enter the temple.
Well, I don't have the facts (and i believe, neither do you) to believe all this stuff happened.. belief in god is a different thing than believing all the stories.. I'd take all the stories/miracles about God (from any religion) with a pinch of salt..
> > And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet".Yes > they did.But from whos feet?Lords feet.Which is the holiest part of > lords body?Its the feet.IN our religion we fall at the feet of > lord.Tirupathi balaji always shows his feet to the devotees.baratha > carried ram's sandals in his head.
Again, it's strange that people justify it's ok to classify ppl on the basis of their birth.. I'd like to go with the concept of "pirappokkum ella uyirkkum"... Why should one be differentiated on the basis of birth. Why can't every one be born from the same place, (for ex.. Lord's stomach/womb)..?
> Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their > ancestors is not right.can we go to war with muslims for > aurangazeb's acts?we cant.Its similiar. >
I agree 100% with you.. Punishing the folks now for atrocities committed ages ago by their ancestors is neither right nor good.. We've to acknowledge that the society was not perfect and strive for a perfect society and move on.. No use in getting stuck in the past and ignoring the future..
> God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became > sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya > earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son)It was never by birth >
Well.. Do we really want to involve ourself in discussing this outdated system..?? This examples about valmigi and vyasa are really laughable.. Is that how it is practised today??..
hi priya they place the satari on lords feet becos they cannot place satari on the head of the lord and take it back evrytime. just becos its convenient to place satari at the feet doesnt make feet the holiest part. wat sri said abt people comin out of different parts of lords body mite ve been an addition to the orginal vedas by the overzealos later brahmins, just like the caliphs decided to add their own bit in to holy qoran. but still there r many dalits who r not permitted entry to temples by upper caste people. and i personally know some brahmins who still think they r better than rest of the world becos they r born in to a better caste. wat do u think of them? i dont believe god created varnas. men did it to separate people based on their occupation. i ve a doubt. does ancient tamil literature speak abt castes and segregating people? i m not so familiar with ancient literature since i left high school.
Whether god carried thirupanalvar or not,let it be a fiction-but such a fiction exists shows that dalits were not barred from entry into temples by hinduism.This fiction shows that mainline hinduism did not approve of untouchability.
And second Varnas were not by birth.It was by character."Pirapokkum ella uyirkum" is a nice concept.That concept is highlighted by vedas in many places.In earlier era saints were called bhramins.Anyone can become a bhramin by doing mediatation.Later days it got twisted as it comes by birth.A sudra is one who eats meat.When a bhramin eats meat he becomes a sudra.When a sudra stops eating meat and reads vedas through a guru he becomes a bhramin.Thats all.What objection do you find in this?This got twisted in later eras as castes.You wont find a single castes name in vedas.
I highlighted valmigi and vyasa to show that hinduism did not create castes by birth.
over to thangaprakash..
1)One who prevents anybody from entering into temple is foolish and mad.He will burn in hell for preventing a devotee.
2)Nobody is good or bad based upon birth.Only their karma(acts) decides their goodness and badness.This is highlighted by krishna many times in Geetha.
Untouchability and caste system isnt hindu.Its alien to our religion.Barbarians created such system in a pure religion.Its like racism and slavery in america.THey slaved blacks and prevented them from entering into churches.Was that said in christianity? No.Similiarly this evil entered hinduism.It isnt hindu,ok?
"Onre kulam,oruvane devan"-is the basis for hinduism.
> And second Varnas were not by birth.It was by character."Pirapokkum > ella uyirkum" is a nice concept.That concept is highlighted by vedas > in many places.In earlier era saints were called bhramins.Anyone can > become a bhramin by doing mediatation.Later days it got twisted as > it comes by birth.A sudra is one who eats meat.When a bhramin eats > meat he becomes a sudra.When a sudra stops eating meat and reads > vedas through a guru he becomes a bhramin.Thats all.What objection > do you find in this?This got twisted in later eras as castes.You > wont find a single castes name in vedas. > > I highlighted valmigi and vyasa to show that hinduism did not create > castes by birth. >
well, nice to know that you're against the caste system as it is practised now (by birth)..
But why do u still need to classify ppl based on their food habits or their knowledge of vedas?.. do we really need these categories?.. I can understand if we run a hotel we need to know the customers' food preferences.. or if we are in the temple management for appointing priests..we might want to check out their veda skills.. I bet around 99% of the ppl who goto temples dont know what the hell the priest is chanting abt.. :-) and there was a controversy sometime back with the kanchi sankaracharya opposing poojas in tamil.. and i cud not figure out why he was opposing that..
Anyhow I think we're fighting wrong battles and discussing non-meaningful issues.. The need of the hour is to improve the economic conditions and create a vibrant society where tamil gets its place of pride and thriving in arts/literature/entertainment etc, etc......
sorry but everything is yellow to a jaundiced eye....
Pithamagan was good?Baala gives same old wine in new bottle.His nandha was nothing but palaya kanji.His treatment was good,but story,theme?Balas heroes suffer all the syndromes of relular tamil heroes.Hero worshiping(nandha),sacrifice(surya in pithamagan),innocent heroines(laila),revenge(nandha and pithamagan) one hero beating 1000 villians...
its like saying Oh all of them have a boy he meets a girl and they fall in love...sorry if a boy meets boy or vice versa its a sensational Fire!!
I am an ardent Forsyth fan He has ran ot of resources thats why he reran to old cold war days for his avenger...I had to force myself to finish Dogs of war....In his recent short stories Whispering wind was fantastic but the rest were OK... Archer was brilliant with not a penny less and not a penny more..Kane and Able and Prodical daughter were good..The Eleventh Commandant -OK The Fourth Estate -Drag Honour Among Thieves -V Good As the Crow Flies -OK A Matter of Honour - Good First Among Equals - 1984 but can you imagine someone in India writing a political story of that nature...Manirathnam tried but the box office failed him and critiques assumed it was MGR and MK and said this is not right that is not right) The Prodigal Daughter - 1982 Kane and Abel - my favorite Shall We Tell the President? - 1977 good Not a Penny More, Not a Penny Less - 1974 good
three to four years for one book...our authors cannot afford them and will not fetch he same moneory gains as the westrn authors.
And no one in america or UK consider them literature btw...they are trash to read in the trains and weekends....If barathiraja is a soft pornist what is sheldon????(i love or used to love sheldon till he started to write junk)
rea thotaal thodarum by PKP.....thayumanavan..kathalaki kasinthu by Balakumaran..people do create quality work at the end of the day it depends on who it reaches....is someone in perungalathur and peravurani going to understand about airframes and importance of absolute zero....probably not...
do i wan to read Iliad and Odessy or slave trade when I retire to bed after a long days work...No but I would readily read PS,Yavanarani,Class,or odessa file...
Do I want to watch Mahnadhi and Pasi at those times no Id much rather watch MMKR or Thenali..
Thaths whats driving our creators the mass and what they need... How many of you remember ' Kuzhandai sirikattume Thaiyin Kadakathappil... Ulagam Vizhikattume Pillayin sirumugam parthu
Chella mazhiyu nee chinna idiyum nee..maranam nee meenda jananam nee'
But we all remember O podu and appadi poddu poddu and manmatha rasa.
Thats because thats what you hear day in day out Thats wht people want....
My son used to listen and ask for bharthiyar songs before bed and used to sing a few but now that we have sun TV its Ghilli A Ghilli...
I can criticize iyarkai too.It wasnt that good. You can criticise everything if you wanted to
Soft Pornist MMM I dont know how many will agree with your veiw point... Try seeing Kizhakku Cheemaiyile(the bond between a brother and sister in a rustic environment)...Vedam Pudithu(the clash between an enlightened brahmin boy and an elder caste hindu)....Karuthamma(on female infanticide).....
Did I say so? I can site example too of sivan asking the nandi to moove for nandanaar. It was the later day so called bhramins to spoilt our religion by this shameful act. Good you agree i was manmade and shameful but it exists still today. > > And Its another misquote to say "dalits came from gods feet". Sorry sudras came from the feet and Dalits god knows where.
Emperumanin pathakamalangalai naan pazhuthu sollavillai sagothari...inda utharanathai upayokapaduthi makkalai pethapaduthu kirarkal enru than sonnen > > If given a chance i would prefer lords feet. Dont we all Is that an insult doctor? Did I say that again No. > > You might not believe in heritage of poosaris and iyers.But millions do.They arent mediators between us and god.They are caretakers of > temples.Nothing more,nothing less. Thats the problem when people claim they are mediators...caretakers...Is the God and Me in a coldwar that we need mediating???? The main problems of all mankind started due to preists and clergy...Indian Castism to quote you'It was the later day so called bhramins to spoilt our religion by this shameful act.' That led to conversions and people leaving the religion the laste lot being ambedkar and his followers(interestingly Buddist is classed as a part of Hinduism I belive in the nomenclature of religions in India) THe same happened in europe with the bishops and clergies making peoples life hell which led to Lutherism,Calvinism,Church of England and so on....
Punishing modern day iyers for atrocities comitted by their ancestors is not right. I am not asking you to punish anybody All I said was the educated unemployed youngsters should be encouraged to do them....
God created varnas by quality,not by birth.Many bhramins became sudras.Many sudras became bhramins(valmigi was a pulaya earlier,vyasa rishi was a fisherwoman's son) I believe God did not create any segregations its like a mother saying this kid is better because of this...but What is practice today is what we are discussing...
Thanjavur used to be notorioussly antibrahmin in the 60s and 70s they apparantly have pulled poonools from people and burned I have heard..I thought this was crazy...When I was in 9th std....Why would anybody have so much anxt agains one community... One of my friend's tamil teacher got married so all them went to the wedding...the boys in the seminary werent invited the princi and rector were requested to come in their civvies (as opposed to their white attires)the reason was the bride was from thiruvidai maruhur i think and te agraharam was very acharam and didnt allow other religions or low castes in ...this is in 1987....
so these pockes are prelavant...you open the newspaper there is caste rlted death everyday....
Oops... too many sorries... didn't u see the smiley at the end??.. :-))
I don't know if it's bcos of friends, but it's a common trait for me and my friends that we rarely get offended for anything and least of all abt ppl making fun of the places we grew up, no wonder our school teachers used to fondly compare us with "male cows".. :-)
Oops... too many sorries... didn't u see the smiley at the end??.. :-))
I don't know if it's bcos of friends, but it's a common trait for me and my friends that we rarely get offended for anything and least of all abt ppl making fun of the places we grew up, no wonder our school teachers used to fondly compare us with "male cows".. :-)
The talk of mediators is interesting.But without them a religion cannot function.we cannot leave a religion to public.Christianity needs popes and pastors.Islam needs mullahs and maulvis.Buddhism needs monks.HInduism needs priests and bhramins.
These people are human too.In USA many pastors did child molestation and it rightly gets wide condemnation.Its usually these "mediators" who spoil a religions name.In Hinduism priests destroyed dalits completely.In islam these mullahs made sultans to wage jihads.Pope Innocent made europe to wage crusades.
We cannot do away with them.If you do that you have to do away with the religion.You can do away with religion too,but as long as you remain a believer you cannot do away with the religion and you have to have priests.As long as a community needs religious service like baptism,kadhu kutthal,marriages etc it needs priests.
I too dont believe in mediators.But when I get married i want it to be with "vedas chanted,a bhramin priest giving the thali with manthras chanted before agni.."When I die i want my asthi to be mixed in perur river by a prohithar.I want my descendents to do amavasi tharpanam for me with an iyer.Not only me millions want it to be that way.Millions of christians want to get baptized by a pastor.Millions of muslims want to get nikkha under a khaji.
I dont want this habit to be reformed.If priests misbehave punish thems severly under law.Occasionally priests will misbehave.But dont do away with them.That is the wish of every believer.we dont want reforms for the sake of reforms.we want tradition.we will have reforms when ugly prctices creep in like castes.But we will destroy the ugly habits and not our beliefs.
Dear Priya Just thought Ill share these two articles...Just echoing your sentiments What GOD said and How MAN changed it to suit his needs..... ###########
Caste and Bhagawat Gita
By Ambassador O P Gupta, IFS Tuesday, 10 June , 2003, 16:09
Supporters of casteism oftenly quote two slokas viz. (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Shrimad Bhagwat Gita to support four castes by birth. Let us examine. In sloka (IV.13) Lord Krishna says: "Chaturvarnyma mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhagsah" i.e. four orders of society created by Me according to their Guna (qualities/behaviour) and Karma (profession/work/efforts). Lord Krishna does not say guna and karma of previous life. In sloka (XVIII.41) Lord Krishna says "Brahmana Kshatriya visham sudranam cha paramtapa, karmani pravibhaktani svabhavaprabhavaigunaih."
It means people have been grouped into four classes according to their present life karma (profession/work) and svabhava (behaviour). `The division of labour into four categories - Brahman, Ksatriya, Vaishya and Sudra - is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples' nature`. Had this division been based on birth, Lord Krishna would have naturally used phrase 'Janmani pravibhaktani' in the very shloka (XVIII.41).
In sloka (XVIII.42), Lord Krishna prescribes duties (karma) which one must do in order to qualify as a Brahman i.e. among other duties (karma), he must have studied Vedas and must teach Vedas to others. Thus, if a person has neither studied Veda, nor teaches Veda to others, he is not a Brahman.
Brahman categorisation is an acquirement through efforts like present day degrees of MA, MBBS etc. A teacher's son cannot be called a teacher by birth, a General's son is not a general by birth, son of an engineer is not an engineer by birth, son of an IFS officer cannot be called an IFS officer by birth.
Can he? Readers may note here Lord Krishna has clearly commanded that Hinduism is a missionary religion as sloka (XVIII.42) casts a duty on Brahmans to teach & propagate Vedas to others. Baba Saheb Dr. Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar is the first writer who struck me asserting that Hindusim is a missionary religion (Dr. Ambedkar: Life and Mission, Dhananjay Keer, page 270).
In slokas (XVIII.68) and (XVIII.69) Lord Krishna has again cast missionary duties on his devotees to preach His gospel all over the globe. RV (X.191) and AV (III.30) also impose missionary duties on Hindu priests to bring all under harmony i.e.under one flag.
Under Islamic law, anyone who attempts to convert a Muslim into a Kafir has to be killed. Feroz Shah Tughlak (1351-88) ordered to burn alive those Brahmans who tried to convert Muslims into Hinduism. In view of this Islamic capital sentence, Hindu priests perhaps permanently gave up missionary zeal. It was restarted by Arya Samaj but during the British rule as 'suddhi.'
Following are the two missionary shlokas of Gita:
(Gita: XVIII.68) He who, offering the highest love to Me, preaches the most profound gospel of the Gita among My devotees, shall come to Me alone; there is no doubt about it. Gita: XVIII.69: (Among men there is none who does Me a more loving service than he; nor shall anyone be dearer to Me on the entire globe than he.)
In sloka (X.20) Lord Krishna says 'ahamatama gudakesa sarvabhutaa sayasthitah' i.e. `Arjuna! I am the universal self seated in the hearts of all beings.` Here, Lord neither excludes sudra from `all beings` nor excludes Himself from being in hearts of sudra. In sloka (XVIII.61) Lord says `eshwarah sarvabhutaanaam hraddesearjuna tisthati` i.e. Arjuna! God abides in the heart of all living beings.
Again, sudras are not excluded. In sloka (XIV.4) Lord Krishna says 'of all embodied beings Arjuna, prakrti or nature is the conceiving Mother, while I am the seed giving Father.' Thus, Lord Krishna says that he is as much Father of sudras as he is Father of any other Hindu.
In sloka (XVI.18) Lord Krishna says: "Given over to egotism, brute force, arrogance, etc. they hate Me dwelling in their own bodies as well as those of others." Thus, Lord Krishna instructs that a Hindu must not hate others Hindus as he is there in bodies of all Hindus so Gita prohibits untouchability.
In sloka (XVI.19) Lord says "These haters, sinful, cruel and vilest among men, I cast (them) again and again into demonical yonies (wombs)." In sloka (XVI.20) Lord again curses Manu supporters that such Hindus never attain Me (i.e. moksha): "Failing to reach Me, Arjuna, these stupid souls are born life after life in demoniac wombs (asura yoni) and then verily sink down to a still lower plane."
Gita: XVIII.71: In sloka (XVIII.71), Lord Krishna opens His gates for all Hindus including sudras when he says "The man who hears holy Gita with reverence, he too shall reach happy world (shreshtha ewam shubh lok) of the virtuous (punyatmas). So how can Manusmriti or Gautam sutra or anything ban Sudras from listening to Vedas and Gita? In sloka (V.18) Lord says "The wise (who desire to achieve moksha) look with the same eye (samadarshi) on a Brahmana endowed with learning and culture, a cow and pariah (chandal) too." Therefore, those who look down upon sudra are neither wise nor can they achieve moksha.
Shrimad Valmiki Ramayan also says whosoever including sudra reads it will achieve greatness and get rid of all sins. Valmiki Ramayana: 1.1.98-100) Thus, Vedas, Ramayana and Gita confer authority on sudras to possess and read these.
In Ramayan, Lord Rama has Himself set following two lessons for all Rambhaktas Hindus which we witness every year in Ramlilas but never follow in our practical lives so we were defeated by foreigners. (For a comparision, see how steadfastly muslims adhere to and follow examples set by Prophet in Sunnah). Ravana was a grandson of risi Pulatsya. He was an expert on Vedas too. So, he was a Brahimin by birth under Manu definition as well as a Brahimin (educated) by qualification (veda-gyata) but he and most of his family members were killed by Lord Rama for their wrong doings.
So, the first lesson of Ramayana is that everyone (irrespective of his caste) is equal before law. Lord Rama visited Shabri, called her a mother (mata); ate food from her hands and washed feet of Nisadraj.
Lord Rama lived for years among vanvasi (tribals). So, the second lesson of Ramayana is that a true Rambhakta should never discriminate against SC/ST/Dalit Hindus, should never hesitate to visit and dine with them. See, Mahatma Gandhi always followed mansa, vacha and karmana both these two lessons of Ramayana and he became a Yug Purus.
Many SC/ST/Dalit Hindus are not even aware of rich contributions made by their ancestors to the three supreme Hindu scriptur
Great works on casteism dr.rathnam.vedas and geetha are holy texts of hindus and not the casteist manu smirthi.Manu smirithi might have been the work of later age "gang of thugs who called themselves bhramins".Vedic hinduism never supported bhramism or casteism.It was as impartial as lord krishna was.Thank you for the quotes.
PLEASE delete my name from PONNIYIN SELVAN FROM-------- padmathyag@yahoo.co.in
latin. times > r changing and tamil s to change too. we cannot expect poets of old times to > be born evry ten yrs. we d one bharathi, kalki and bharathi dasan for last > century. someone ll come this century, provided we make the environment > conducive.