Why Pandyas lost to Kafur.
  • Hi
    malik literally moved at the speed of wind. sometimes faster than the news.
    barani literally gives us the dates he was at each place.

    chidambaram, sirkali, srirangam and straight to madurai wher he reportedly saw the stone elephants eating sugarcane.
    people say thats why he left the madurai temple untouched though he looted it. but in reality it was perhaps because the pandyan factions had regrouped and forgotten their own differences.
    my opinion is the speed of malik was because the pandyans had literally wiped out all other tamil kings who could have delayed malik. so he moved like a heated knife within butter.
  • Dear,
    It has a partial answer in kayal too
  • Dear,
    I have touched this area in my new novel Kayal
  • I have read somewhere that Pandyas went to Tirukkattuppalli to face Kafur but Cauvery became dry suddenly and water was an issue for Pandya army

    I read that they lost due to lack of supplies. Request members to tell me whether this was
    an issue?

    Secondly purely on Mangement/Strategy point of view - Pandyas should have kept a storng force at Kanchi like Cholas did.

    Vijayanagar learnt from this and had their capital at one end Hampi. This helped them to keep enemy at bay for longer

    Also even after lossing at talakkotta, they could protect their max territory by only conceeding part only. They held on to penukonda for sometime at at Chandragiri for sometime and the Madurai, tanjore, Maysore and Senji held on for some more time.

    Even after a major loss they managed for another 150-200 years

    In case of Pandyas - It was an open house till Madurai.
  • Yes
    Details in "thennattu porkalangal" by KN appadurai

    Two major factors are

    1. No smaller kingdoms under its rule to act as buffer - clear all the way upto madurai outer

    2. Trying to engage enemy in unknown area after long travel without logistics support

    Finally madurai was saved by the ramnad maravars who defended along with common and finally a settlement was reached for safe passage

    Sivasankar Babu
    Gmail Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
  • Sir - was that like - Kongu, karur, TV Malai ,Permabalur under Hoysalas & Pudukkottai, Tanjore, south arcot, Kanchi were under Pandyas?

    Was the Hoysala branch - at Kannaore/Srirangam wasquiet because the Hoysala HQ at Dwarasamudram lost to Kafur and is actually sending reinforcement to Kafur - which was part of peace treaty?

    Can you pl check and clear our doubt on this?
  • Dear sir

    Please tell us about the mention in Koyil Ozhugu,

    Also can anyone elobarateon the Hoysala inscription of Kannanur and the recently found Gopurappatti Hoysala inscription.

    I understand that they talk more about the impact.
  • Many of the references in this thread are from wikipedia

    I am not clear how these information is sourced or validated

    Can the seniors who have researched on this and wrote books , detail their experiences

    If required. We can take this validation as a separate activity ( if not already done)

    Sivasankar Babu
    Gmail Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
  • Dear,
    I request to read kayal, as various incidences happen before the invasion of malifk kafuris covered in Kayal. (கயல்)
  • Majority of the content in wikipedia is verified and validated by experts of
    that field. Also sometimes the contributors provide a footnote specifying
    the source of information. However there may be instances where some
    unverified content is published there.
    If you can provide which particular sentence you think should be verified by
    people here then it might be easier for people here to give their comments.
  • Hi
    maliks raid into the south obviously has " the victor writes the history" clause. obviously since the losers are shatterred and regrouping, and perhaps re arranging their lives

    in fact the two or three raids of turks over 25 years is often combined as one event. but there seem to have been an active pandyan regrouping after maliks raid.
    it was worthwile for the turks to raid again after a decade. that was when i assume the idols of our important temples made forays into exile

    but one thing is for sure. while researching for a book i found any authentic first person reports or references came from 2 turkish historians one of whom, barani surely accompanied the expedition.
    we have another first hand report of the madurai sultanate by no lesser a figure than ibn batuta himself

  • Thanks venkatesh

    This clears lot of background information. My doubt was because of the mismatch between the Wikipedia verison and K. N Appathurai version on “ thennattu porkalangal “
  • Hi
    thirupunavasal -one of the pandi 14 temples.
    the largest lingam amongst the 276 devaram shrines
    the kali is within a gopuram and one has to view it on a mirror.
    when i went there 5 years back a muslim boy used to get 'Sami" and predict events within the temple premises

    the present structure is a thiruppani by al.sp.pl family of devakottai. their family still runs the mandagapadi

    but my point is that there were atleast 4 sundarapandians before the one who fought with his brother.
    could be anybody. and we have a veerapandiyanpattanam further south

  • Hi,

    Does anyone have the soft copy of K. N Appathurai version on “ thennattu porkalangal “ ??

    S Rakesh
  • That argument does not hold good, because the Pandyas like other Kings had attacked other Kingdoms. So it is not that they did not have experience as an 'offensive team'.

    ps: True, culturally we lacked the aggressiveness of the "Islamic" invaders :-)))))))
  • Must have been because of Sundara Pandya. The brothers did not get along really well....if I read my history correctly.

  • Reason number one - Indians, in particular Tamils, are never united!
    Reason number two - Malik must have had naval support too, to
      infiltrate coastal areas as most of the coastal

      Tamilnadu is having large muslim population

      even today !

  • Hi
    there were muslims in tamilnadu even before malik. peacefultrader communities who were also attacked by malik. wassaf even gives some names of families( arab origin)
    malik had dreams of building a naval force and taking on lanka soon thereafter. but some how i think the pandyas regrouped and he had to leave.
    but maliks route was always away from the sea. funny because he was first captured as a slave from khambayat a busy port
  • Dear VGThe muslims in coastal tamilnadu were conversions by traders and were serving th pandyas very well (if you go into the archives you will find Dr Jaybees posts) Infact even today there used to be a difference between converted muslims of th south and north indian ones who were from the invading persian and afghan clansI think Venkat has clarified his route and I cannot argue with him knowing the pains he has gone through for his novel Madhurai.... Sri

    If I can stop one heart from breaking,I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin, Into his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    Emily Dickinson
    To: ponniyinselvan@yahoogroups.com
  • Can we say that some type of a compacency settled all across after the prosperity. When ever we had lot of Money - a jolt comes to us.
    The same story repeated in Vijayanagar. ( Actually this is my doubt and like to get clarified)
    Can you all please share your views.
  • Here's a mechanism to explain it:

    During long reigns, the next generation grows older without actually
    wielding power. They become restless, and start fighting among themselves.
    Power devolves to the ministers and other hangers-on. With no experience,
    the new ruler comes to the throne at an advanced age, after internecine
    civil wars, which decimate the discipline of the army. In the end, either a
    foreign power invades, or the feudal chieftains rebel and destroy the

  • Very true

    The raise and fall of dynasties follow the same pattern

    If you read " decline and fall of roman empire " by gibbon , the symptoms are highlighted

    Cholas were able to sustain for the longest period due to their administrative reforms and their religious alignment. The structure of yuvaraj with admin / military powers early in the king's rule helped a lot in smooth sustenance and tranfer of power - some times even in middle of battle field

    Sivasankar Babu
    Gmail Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
  • Please read the 'Courses of the Empire" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire

    Complacency and arrogance are clear signs about the impending change in regime, everywhere.

    All Empires have collapsed. Only the Indic Civilization, which is not an empire, even managed to have a continuous history. Roman, Greek, Aztek, Mayan, Egyptian, Chinese all have succumbed. Chinese might be the closest to us who did not fully collapsed.

    On reason why our Hindu rulers failed at the hands of Muslim invaders were the reason and way both sides fought.


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