Why Pandyas lost to Kafur.
  • Thank you.

    I am trying to find why Vira Pandya lost to Malik Kafur. I know the Pandya princes were fighting with each other. But I thought the Pandya Princes had mightier army and they were fighting in their own territory. Malik Kafur came to the lion's den so to speak. So the Pandya Princes knew the territory and in all likely hood the local population must have supported them as well. They would not have had issues with supplies and logistics. Malik Kafur would have had to rely on the Hoysala and other local alliances - which could have easily turned sour.

    I am looking for some war information. Like the strength of army and such. Was the Pandya army less trained? Did Kafur have better resources and weapons? If Kafur took 500 elephants and 20,000 horses, then it shows that we had plenty of things. And looking at the loot, it is not that the Pandyas could not afford to pay salary to their army or have the best, latest and greatest, in those times, for the army.

    Bad tactics? Bad strategy? Or did the Hindus get totally scared of the Muslim brutalities?
  • Dear sir,

    Pls verify the records of muhammadian travelers notifications

    Thanking You

    Sakthi sree
  • GRS, wait for Venkatesh's Madurai book to be released - you will have all
    your answers !!
  • Just one point from my side:
    We have many examples of such invaders who were quite successful in their
    missions, like Alexander, Babur, nadir Shah, Muhhamed Ghauri and the latest
    probably was Napoleon etc etc. A major factor in all such victories was the
    passion towards your goal. I am not saying that their goals were correct or
    wrong but they were dedicated towards this.
    Now what I feel about the loss of Pandyas, or in that case any other Indian
    dynasty, was the lack of aggravation and strategy to defend the kingdom
    instead of attacking from the front. When your strategy is only to defend
    then your army does not get experience of attacking war tactics and that
    probably put those down. Just a thought without any substantial support.
    May be I can say little more when I read about the Pandyas.
  • historical accounts can be very confusing
    at the time of maliks invasion one of the 2 major pandyas was ruling from uyyakondan in trichy wheras a hoysala branch was ruling from kannanur or samayapuram. how is it that the hoysalas had moved so much into chola land when the pandyas were claiming all lands - even upto kanchi
  • what i couldnt rather digest was 2 capitals so close to each other
  • This obviously has more fiction than fact
    i spent researching these crucial periods for nearly 2 years and information from any source was frustratingly less.
    most of this period was reconstructed by the accounts the turkish historians gave.
    i believe the route was first chidambaram then srirangam and then madurai,
    i also feel the royal opposition was little and the idols of gods were saved by the common man.
    for example we know that veerapandiyan and sundarapandyan were step brothers but each account difffers on who was illegimate

  • The koyil olugu confuses time lines. It mixes Udayavar with Kafur's raid and comes up with the Thuluka Nachiar legend.
  • There are defenetly many unverified and perosnal views in wiki things.

    There is also a network. a refers b's book, b refers c's book and c refers a's book and a proof is established jointly by a,b and c.

    So wiki cannot be 100% right
  • As the discussion is focussed on Veerapandiyan and Sundarapandiyan I have a few

    details to write. I am working as a Manager in Canara Bank in Chennai city and I spent

    three years in my posting in Thiruppunavasal village branch in Avudayarkoil Taluk,

    Pudukkottai district. There is an ancient temple in this village, dedicated to Lord Shiva,

    which, as per legends, was constructed during the Sundarapandiyan period viz. a

    1000 years or so. The priest used to tell lot of things about this temple.

    As you all may be knowing Bharanitharan was writing serials in Ananda Vikatan like

    Aalaya Makimai, Aalaya Dharisanam etc. at the time of concluding one of these serials,

    [ I don't know which one] he met Sri Chandrasekara Saraswati, the senior pontiff of
    Sankara Mutt and informed him that he had visited all the shrines in Tamilnadu and
    concluding the serial. Then it seems the Swamigal enquired him whether he was sure that
    he visited all the temples and Bharanitharan knodded "yes". Swamigal immediately
    asked him whether you visited Thirupunavasal ? Bharanitharan was blinking as he did

    not know that place. It seems then Swamigal guided him the route of this temple and
    advised him to visit this temple and conclude the serial. He had also said that this

    particular temple was so sacred that he would not wear his chappals whenever he visited

    Inside this temple near Kaliamman sannadhi, there is a big hall like structure [mandapam]
    looks like buried which can be seen even today !

    So whatever our friend Mr Venkatesh says, falls in place, as this temple was built by
    Sundarapandiyan. There is also a village [now inhabited by muslims] about 3 kms from this
    temple called "Sundarapandiyan Pattinam". This is a coastal village from where

    across Bay of Bengal Mannar, Sri Lanka , is just 30 kms / half an hour journey !
    It might interest historians who wish to excavate ! It might throw some light on the present

  • Yes, Mr Venkatesh, you are right. I used to know that gentleman SP.PL from Devakottai,

    is a big shot and an estate owner I believe ! Very simple and unassuming person ! The Bank

    Manager will have his honours in the temple on the 5th day of theAnnual Festival
    of the temple ! I was fortunae and blessed that I had the honours continuously
    for 3 years during my stay there in 2002-2005 ! They give some "kaalaanji" [coconut prasadam]
    in a silver cup or so besides putting a silk shaw around your head [parivattam] and a garland !

    Very interesting formalities of the olden days followedin the temples in that part of Tamilnadu !

    Well, I think the last regime of Tamilnadu banned this practice in the temples.

  • If the Pandyan Princes had defeated all the other local chiefs and Kings in the area, they must have control over the area. So Kafur comes all the way from the North; meets the lions in their den and yet manages to defeat them? Sorry to use the same lion's den metaphor, in colloquial tamil it is like "avan namba pettaikku vandhu nambalaye pottu thalikurkaan" :-)))) He must have had something going for him - superior forces, superior tactics or strategy. Moreover, he must have had support from all the Chiefs and Kings he defeated on his journey.

    ps: Pity that our people aided an outsider. It has been party of our history. So is the case of millions of Indian soldiers in the British Indian Army.
  • Losing because of supplies is valid; but quite shameful if you consider the territory where they lost - i.e. their own territory. If the Pandyas had gone to Tibet and failed because of supplies that I would agree. But near Cauvery river? Sheesh, whoever was leading the armies must have been very incompetent.

  • Hi
    the pandyans had not fought a real battle for decades when malik came along( except between themselves) i remember that vikrama the brother of kulasekara raised the standard of rebellion just like his grand uncle a couple of generations back.
    while there is evidence that thuklaks invasion( the third) used flame throwers and catapults, there is little evidence that malik used them
    in fact wassaf the historian accompanying malik notes madurai was deserted when malik reached it

    maliks greatest asset was his speed. and of course the support by the hoysalas.
  • I think there is some validity in the reason that the soldiers did not have enough experience fighting. If one notices, the way America operates, it constantly is engaged in fighting over several continents - it has soldiers spread across several bases, and there is constantly something or the other going on. But then the Military-Establishment controls some amount of foreign policy. War is beneficial to the weapons manufacturers.

    The Islamic invaders were constantly involved in attacks; just like the Mongol warriors. I am tempted to say Genghiz probably waged war all the time, probably there was not one year where he did not fight. It keeps the soldiers on toes, but then they would also get burned out quickly.

    So how did our Kings keep their soldiers motivated and trained?
  • hi,

    malik kafur was a hindu slave captured during a raid and later converted to islam rite ?

  • > ps: Pity that our people aided an outsider. It has been party of our history. So is the case of millions of Indian soldiers in the British Indian Army.

    darymples last emperor makes a wonderful study of this. how maratas the deadly enemies of mughals support them against the sikhs who fight for the british to avenge the death of their gurus.

    must have been a real bhelpuri of emotions


  • there is very little known about malik before the salve markets of khambayat.
    his firstr name was malik hazardinari.
    for a lot of time people confused him with the ethiopian habsi malik ambar and assume he was coloured.
  • Hi
    lethargy sets at the end of great empires. and surprisingly long reigns of the kings contribute to the demise
    the last three cholas ruled for a century. last three mughals too,
    should check out on the pandyas. but unlike the other two pandyas were crushed when they were in their pinnacle.

  • That was not his real name for sure. He got 'hazardinari' because this owner paid 'hazar' - thousand coins (probably dinars) to obtain him.

  • > Complacency and arrogance are clear signs about the impending change in regime, everywhere.
    small changes in technology too. i would strongly recommend people to read RIVERGOD by wilbursmith. where the all powerful egyptians are subdued by a group of grazers just because the latter( hittites) used the wheel. the egyptians in the story are stunned by ships that sail on the land( charriots)

    > All Empires have collapsed. Only the Indic Civilization, which is not an empire, even managed to have a continuous history. Roman, Greek, Aztek, Mayan, Egyptian, Chinese all have succumbed. Chinese might be the closest to us who did not fully collapsed.
    > On reason why our Hindu rulers failed at the hands of Muslim invaders were the reason and way both sides fought.
    > GRS

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