Dear all That was a very interesting veiw point but I agree with Krupa that there is no research evidence to point in that direction.....
Just because the chola architechture is different doesnt mean that they are from outside....
The temples that preceed chola temples are mamalapuram temples and they have similar architechture....ie the structure of praharam being tall....
the chola temples had big main praharams and small rajagopurams on the contrary to the rest which had big rajagopurams....
the chola style of temples then had their influence on the chalukya and ganga temples...
As far as the names are concerned I think like krups said Arulmozhi and aadithan and kanadirathithan were chaste tamil names...
secondly there was a timescale difference of 800 years between the two sagas and there will be influence of other lingiustic and cultural trends Are the greek names of today sounding like aristotile and plato or the names of italians sounding like julius and augustus....does that mean they are different people ....we know they are not but its just influence of other cultures and effect of time
Thank you for the reply to my query.But I still am not convinced and I think this warrants a closer study.
Adithan is not a Tamil name.In Sanskrit it means the son of Aditi and hence given to Sun.Much less Gandaraditya! Arulmozhi,now does that name for Rajaraja figure in historical records or is it just an invention of Kalki? I also think modern Greek names do resemble the ancient ones. The time difference of 800 years is based on the assumption of a chronology which, at best, is far from settled.But certainly there was a time gap and there were cultural and other influences from outside.The question is whether the imperial Colas were transmitters of some of these influences. The temple architecture of Brhadeeswarar temple has an affinity to the shore temples of Mamallapuram and that again shifts the focus from the Colas to the Pallavas about whom similar questions may be raised.
Quite a lot of questions have been raised - but let me just post few of my insights.
* There are very significant differences between sanga kala chola and later cholas. One of the most prominent one being the influence of sanskrit and associated cultural mix. Hence while later cholas trace back their ancestory to the sangam age, many things have evolved in the period.
* We can spot many cholas even during the dark ages - between 3rd cen and 9th cen. Hence the dynasty was alive. But we are not sure who bore vijayalaya etc.
* Arulmozhi was indeed rajaraja's name. He is referred to as Arumozhi without the "l". We recently got a record in velur referring to a temple built by rajaraja before ascending the throne. It is called arumozhi Iswaram.
* Cholas had great respect and regard for pallava art forms and happily carried many of the traditions set forth by the latter. Rajaraja, who constructed BIG temple refers to kanchi kailasanatha temple as "Periya Katrali" !
In my view, cholas were not outsiders but they were absolutely open to other culture and traditional infulences and let their art forms enriched with all these elements.
Dear Gokul, Thank u for that considered reply.But I have some questions still. Do we have a clear idea of how things were evolved between the times of the colas of the cankam age and the imperial colas? Who are the colas who can be spotted during the socalled dark ages between the 3rd and 9th centuries A.D.?By the way what is the basis for this chronology?How did Arumoli of the inscriptions transform into Arulmolivarman or Arulmolittevar of PS? Yes,the imperial Colas seem to have been inspired by the Pallavas in temple architecture. But were the Pallavas indigeneous to Tamilnadu or were they outsiders? Finally, these are not questions of one's opinion but issues which have to be addressed and settled one way or the other, to the satisfaction of all concerned. I would be grateful for your remarks,if you have any.Thank you for your time and attention. Rangarajan
> Do we have a clear idea of how things were evolved between the times of the colas of the cankam age and the imperial colas?
No full account. No proper research has been done in this direction. Focus has been mostly on periods that have thrown more evidences like pallavas cholas etc. Infact sangam period archaeology itself has been taken up only in the recent past.
> Who are the colas who can be spotted during the socalled dark ages between the 3rd and 9th centuries A.D.?
References to chola kings (without names) In divya prabantham and thevaram (Sundara refers to a chola who had married a pandiya pricess and was staying in madurai!) and other literatures. Stala puranas mention about cholas (Dharma varma and Nandha chola of srirangam and uraiyur resp). Narasimhavarma pallava gives his daughter to one chola prince whom we cannot identify with certainity (which became the basis for kalki's imagionation) - no doubt the dynasty was thriving in a very small packet.
> By the way what is the basis for this chronology?
We know the period of azhvars / nayanmars and we take it that this chola is a contemporary. Thirumangai azhvar :
This is a reference to Sembiyar koan koch chenganan for example.
> How did Arumoli of the inscriptions transform into Arulmolivarman or Arulmolittevar of PS?
Varman was a standard addition to all chola kings in their sanskrit verses - Rajendra's royal seal says "Rajendra choa varmanaha..."
> Yes,the imperial Colas seem to have been inspired by the Pallavas in temple architecture. But were the Pallavas indigeneous to Tamilnadu or were they outsiders?
Possibly people from andra with Persian origins. But they had lived for so long in India they became very indianised. Excellent info on origin of pallavas available in one agathiyam mail by Dr.JB.
Dear Gokul, Thank you very much for your detailed and careful responses to the questions raised by me regarding the colas.I summarize them below: We have no clear idea of how things were evolved between the times of the colas of the cankam age and the imperial colas. Only a few colas can be spotted from stray references in bhakthi literature during the dark ages between the 3rd and the 9th centuries A.D. There is no strong basis even for this chronology. The Pallavas were from Andhra and had possibly a Persian origin,even though they had become Indianised. Under these circumstances to say that the imperial colas were indigeneous to the Tamil country in the same way as their counterparts of the cankam works seems unacceptable.PS can therfore not be viewed even as a semi-historic novel in spite of its excellence as a literary work.This is the point to which I have been trying to draw the attention of the members of this egroup. Mikka anputan, R
Thanq for the tiruvalankadu plates.KAN who considered all the available evidence including these plates writes in his book on Colas: ..........the Anbil plates which give fifteen names before Vijayalaya including the genuinely historical ones of Karikala,Killi and Koccenkanan.The Tiruvalankadu plates swell the list to forty four and the Kanyakumari list runs upto fifty two, while the Leyden grant is satisfied with a dozen.There are others of varyin lengths to be gathered from literary works like the Kalingattupparani, the ulas of Ottakkuthan etc.No two of these lists agree though some names and details are common. Rangarajan
Dear sps, The connections between colas of the cankam works and the imperial colas on any side still seems tenuous.This needs careful research.Perhaps we will never know. I am open for any arrangement within chennai over weekends.I live in IIT campus.But I need a little perior notice- at least one day earlier.I am surprised that there are no other responses to ur suggestions reg.the audio version until now. Rangarajan
I played the audio version of the PS. Quite good. Tamizh ucharippu is ggood. It is steady and the quality is quite good. When can I expect the next few chapters??
Dear Vijay, I cant remember which chapter(s) I sent u.If u let me know I can send u the next one(s).Due to memory problem my yahoo account cannot save the mp3 file which was sent to u. Rangarajan
Hi all, Today I came across an article by R.Nagaswamy on Sangam poetic traditions under the imperial Colas which throws some light on the connection of Rajaraja Cola to personages of the sangam age thro his mother, Vaanavanmadevi.This refers to an inscription dated 1012 C.E.(27th regnal year)found in the Virattanesvara temple of Tirukkoyilur.It deals ith the gift of villages to this temple ordered by RR at the request of one Kampan Vithivitankan.It is a long poem in Aciriyappa meter running to over 230 lines in the aarruppatai format.RR's conquests of Pandya,Cera,Gangapadi,Udagamandalam,Kongam and Ilamandalam are mentioned.It mentions the poet,Kapilar, and the marriage of Pai's daughter to Malaiyaman.It says that Kapilar, having ensured the safety of Pari's daughter, immolated himself on a boulder on the river Pennai near the Virattana temple.The record also mentions that RR's mother was born in the family of Malaiyaman on her father's sideand Pari on her mother's side and immolated herself on the funeral pyre of her husband,leaving behind an infant whom she was suckling. To me this appears to be the one concrete evidence giving the ties of RR with the kings of the sangam age thro his mother. GR
Dear Sridhar Rathinam, It is clear that we have some intriguing evidence here which does not tally with our preconceived notions of cola history.That 'this particular Vanavanmadevi"is none other than RR's mother is clear from the inscription itself which refers to her as the doe which gave birth to a tiger cub.Since no other infant of this lady is known to have existed one is led to conclude that the infant in question was probably RR himself even tho this may militate against the PS vrsion whose historical veracity is open to question. Kari was known to have killed Ori and given Kolli hill to the Cera king. GR