Since we are on the subject of religion and some esteemed Members have mentioned that Sangam literature refers to Hinduism - adiyen would like to propose that early Tamizh literature does not show any traces of Hinduism as we know it.
It seems there were some local deities who were linked to the locality -like Kotravai and Murugan (Seiyon). Most importantly, it seems also that there was a system of deifying local heros and heorines.
Adiyen think the kural 'vaiyathul vazvaangu vazhvar vaanuraiyum deivathul vaikkap padum' is a very important evidence to this. There is no reference in classical Vedic Hinduism to deifying people who live in a noteworthy manner. Neither is it a Jain practice. At most, one could say that Mahayana buddhists deify boddhisattvas - but boddhisattvas do not seem to fit into description of 'vaiyathul vaazvaangu vaazhvar'. The phrase refers to heroes and notables. And obviously, the making of gods was a decision of society - 'vaikkappadum'.
The practice of mudhumakkal thaazhi needs also to be considered.
So, if this was not the practice of major Indic religions, where did Valluvar get it from? Also possible that murugan or kotravai were also deified heroes.
I think it is also necessary to consider why Jainism and Buddhism made such major headroads into Tamizhagam without any big opposition. The evidence is that Vedic Hinduism was only a minority religion in TN with Buddhism and Jainism during the sangam period.
The major form of worship during the early Sangam era seems to be hero/ancestor worship. Adiyen thinks that there are major parallels between early Tamil religion and early Japanese religion.
Adiyen will talk about this later.
Therefore, although Saivism was a important force during Pallava and Chozha period, it does not seem to have been around during the early sangam period. Also, that Murugan was a son of Shiva seems to be a later conflation of the Tamizh murugam with the Vedic Skandan.
There is lot o material available in the archieves. The religion of Sangam is Vedic Hinduism only.
1. Thirumurugatruppadai - On Muruga
Please read through the Tamil nation org site i have suggested.
In That Siva , His Dakshinamoorthy form Alamar Selvan, Kottrava and Malaimagal ( In both form referred as Murugas mother), Thirumal, Parpan, His Fire, His 3X3 thread - all are there. மூன்றுவகைக் குறித்த முத்தீச் செல்வத்து இருபிறப் பாளர் பொழுதறிந்து நுவல, ஒன்பது கொண்ட மூன்றுபுரி நுண்ஞாண் புலராக் காழகம் புலர உடீஇ,
2. Purananuru - The first song itself refers to Siva and he giving his half to umai is there காமர் வண்ண மார்பின் தாருங் கொன்றை; ஊர்தி வால்வெள் ளேறே; சிறந்த சீர்கெழு கொடியும் அவ்வேறு என்ப; கறைமிடறு அணியலும் அணிந்தன்று; அக்கறை மறைநவில் அந்தணர் நுவலவும் படுமே; பெண்ணுரு ஒரு திறன் ஆகின்று; அவ்வுருத் தன்னுள் அடக்கிக் கரக்கினும் கரக்கும்; பிறை நுதல் வண்ணம் ஆகின்று; அப்பிறை பதினெண் கணனும் ஏத்தவும் படுமே;
3. As i showed yesterday - Many songs mention Pappan and His fire. Also in One song the Hero ( Thalaivan) is a pappan. யாமும் செல்வோம்! பாடியவர்: ஆவூர் மூலங் கிழார். பாடப்பட்டோன் : சோணாட்டுப் பூஞ்சாற்றூர்ப் பார்ப்பான் கௌணியன் விண்ணந்தாயன். திணை: வாகை. துறை: பார்பபன வாகை.
நன் றாய்ந்த நீள் நிமிர்சடை முது முதல்வன் வாய் போகாது, ஒன்று புரிந்த ஈரி ரண்டின், ஆறுணர்ந்த ஒரு முதுநூல்
4. Three daily fires of brahmins compared with the three kings.
Brahmin becoming dwijan after poonool ceremoney - irupirappalar
The Chola is Rajasooyam vetta ( one who performed Rajasuya) வாழச் செய்த நல்வினை! பாடியவர்: ஔவையார். சிறப்பு: சேரமான் மாரி வெண்கோவும், பாண்டியன் கானப்பேர் தந்த உக்கிரப் பெருவழுதியும், சோழன் இராசசூயம் வேட்ட பெருநற்கிள்ளியும் ஒருங்கிருந்தாரைப் பாடியது. திணை: பாடாண். துறை: வாழ்த்தியல்.
நாகத் தன்ன பாகார் மண்டிலம் தமவே யாயினும் தம்மொடு செல்லா; வெற்றோர் ஆயினும் நோற்றோர்க்கு ஒழியும்; ஏற்ற பார்ப்பார்க்கு ஈர்ங்கை நிறையப் பூவும் பொன்னும் புனல்படச் சொரிந்து, பாசிழை மகளிர் பொலங்கலத்து ஏந்திய நாரறி தேறல் மாந்தி, மகிழ் சிறந்து, இரவலர்க்கு அருங்கலம் அருகாது வீசி, வாழ்தல் வேண்டும், இவண் வரைந்த வைகல்; வாழச் செய்த நல்வினை அல்லது, ஆழுங் காலைப் புணைபிறிது இல்லை; ஒன்று புரிந்து அடங்கிய இருபிறப் பாளர் முத்தீப் புரையக் காண்தக இருந்த கொற்ற வெண்குடக் கொடித்தேர் வேந்திர்; யான் அறி அளவையோ இவ்வே; வானத்து வயங்கித் தோன்றும் மீனினும், இம்மெனப் பரந்து இயங்கும் மாமழை உறையினும், உயர்ந்து மேந்தோன்றிப் பொலிக, நும் நாளே!
6. One King Palyagasalai peruvaludi
7. paripadal is full of reference to Hindu Gods and Vedas
8.Madurai kanchi கடவுட் பள்ளியுஞ் சிறந்த வேதம் விளங்கப் பாடி
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Adiyen has no advantage or agenda in proposing the below. Just observations on the little I know of history and Tamil literature.
Your evidence only shows that Vedic Hinduism was present in Tamil Nadu - not that it was wide-spread. No one will dispute this.
But I think we need stronger evidence to disregard the elements of nature and hero worship present in ancient TN.
Also, taking Murugaatrupadai etc to prove TN was Vedic Hindu could be countered by taking Aimperung Kappiyam and saying TN was Buddhist/Jain during the periods of their composition.
Lastly, on the titles of kings. Kings only get titles if they do something different from others. Imayavaramban because he's the only one who did it. If all kings were to go to Imayam for timepass, Cheraladan would not get the title. Similarly, the 'Rajasuyam Vetta' Raja prob got the title because he's the only one who did it. If Vedic Hinduism was truly popular than other kings would have done it too and it would not be a title.
That there are kings distinguished for doing Vedic rites just shows that it was not common. For example, we will not find Northern kings with titles like this because it was expected of kings to do such sacrifices and to support yaagasalais.
Dear Member I cannot understand your question about VEDIC HINDUISM IN SANGAM PERIOD since I am in LKG in English language. -No Vedas and Hinduism in Sangam period - This staPattu and in all oldest Tamil literature speaks about Vedas and Hinduism. We have no oldest evidance than Tholkapium in Tamil Literature I think, Tholkapium was first read before 'Nanmarai Mutriya Adhamkottu Asan' , it is said. There were litereature before Tholkapium also, but we dont have them to prove. It was not necessary to bring Vedas from somewhere to Tamilnadu, because it was here even before sangam period. Tamilnadu was Veda Aranyam. Kindly clear me the question you want to raise, and I will try to answer upto my little knowledge.
Yes, vedic Hinduism was brought to south India by the dravidian migrants. They were under the influence of the aryans. That is why, we should seek more information on migrants. For instance, who was Thiru Kachi Nambi? He came from Kutch, a migrant who believed in God. So also dravidian migrants from Punjab, Bihar and UP who were more influenced by Buddhism and Jainism. R Narasimhan
All along Sangam was 3000 years old.when greatness of Tamil culture is spoken.
Now when more people read sangam and quote freely from it on vedic religion then
Sangam is from 2nd to 4 AD.
This can be a later addition in 10th AD
When required It is Dr Nagaswamy and Sri Iravadam Mahadevan. When their view dosenot suit you then quote Kumbakonam Kuppusamy, Nanganallur Narayanasamy.
not sure if this is a generic message or an answer to my question, if later is in 10th AD, i assume you are quoting that, who wrote it - any idea? The tamil verbage is very similar to original Murugatruppadai hence my doubts.
wow... so kachi does not mean Kanchi maanagar ? Guru Arunagiri sings 'Kachi chokka perumale' looks like Chokka perumal is also from Kutch :) Did not know we had a sowcarpet in Kanchi too ;)
Thirukachi Nambi was born at Thirumekuzhi near Poovirundhavalli. He was Vysya by birth. Thiruveeraraghava and Kamalai was his father and mother. He was born in Sowmya year (just previous to Ramanujar's birth) Masi month in Mrugaseerisham star. A separate temple for him is at Kanchi. He was the abhimana sishya of Alavandar and one of five Gurus of Sri Ramanujar. He was doing Alavatta Kainkaryam to Varadaraja Perumal of Kanchi. This is what we have in Guru Paramparai Pravaham. If you have any evidance for Thirukachi Nambi came from Kutch please furnish. In many pasurams of Alwars they priase Kanchi as Kachiampathi. Did they say about Kutch? Mere pronounciation ofthe names are somewhat similar, you cant say he was from Kutch. Then you can say Rama was from Rome, Hanuman was from Andhaman. Narasimhan came from Nairobi,etc.. Vedic Hinduism was the only religion in South India even before sangam period. Buddhism was spread after Ashoka and Jainism in parallel.Our ancient tamil literatures show that vedic hinduism was spread all over tamil nadu from Kings to the poorest from the dawn of tamil history.
Please donot consider The ref of Deivatin Kural as a book by a Hindu mutt head. There is no reasearcher better than Paramacharya. His approaches the subjects as a researcher than a madadibathi.
The translation of his work is not done except for a short part as " Hindu Dharama".
Both the Tamil and Parts in English can be directly accessed at Kanchi Kamakoti org.
1. There was only one Rajasooyam Vetta Perunarkilli. That means very few people did that and hence very few people followed Vedic religion.
The 2 yagnas prescribed for Kings ( to prove their supremacy) are Rajasooya and Ashwameda.
Very few kings did that. Yudishtira Rajasuya and Rama the ASshwameda for eg.
That was one of the rarest of rare yagas which only a few did.
2. Sujatha on Sangam. While his views on Silappadigaram is shown, there is another article of him on Srirangam in which he sited a Sangam song. It was like Arangattu Palguni Uthiram some thing. That was also to be considered before dismissing sangam.
The best way is to take the sangam songs, read them and come out with your views.
I gave you the link. The Tamilnation Org has all sanga illakkiyums for downloading.
Disprove me with the other references. I dont want a last word on this. If i am wrong will correct myself.
Religion should not come in healthy discussions, in my opinion. As far my knowledge goes, there was not any particular religion in the entire world initially as people were worshipping their own Gods. Even in Indus Valley Civilisation, people were worshipping Sun, Fire, Cow etc. - what we do now. There was not at all a religion called 'Hindu' .People who were living in the Indus Valley werecalled were Indus and latter Hindus. They spoke a language Timiz which may latter changed into Tamil (Pl. ref. Ancient Indian History by Mazumdar).