I think i'm being very naive by asking this question. Why is tamil history never disputed?
Apart from the semi-mythical kings in the epics and kappiyams, no real tamil king seems to have been subjected to any criticism. For example, Karikal Cholan. We read that he built a great dam, was a great warrior, mighty king etc.,
Is it possible that this king did no wrong? Was there no concept of war crimes? Or were all tamil kings chivalrous? And what about the administrative fallacies? No totalitarian kings? No social imbalance? No amoral kings? Considering that most tamil poets were well 'rewarded' for singing praises and most of written records were ordered by the kings, how far can we take them to be authentic? (Please not here that i have no problems with poetic exxagerations.)
I'm not as well read as other members so i may have missed things. Kalki does tell us about a few things, like pulikesi's rapacity, mahendravarman's so-called cowardice, the presence of power brokers (paluvettariar, sambuvaraiyar etc.,).
I'm not arguing here, just asking a question to clear my ignorance.
Jean (now if you are a guy you better say what is your name :))
First of all 'war crimes' is a purely 20th century word, coined for mass genocide when there is an accepted/prevalent code of ethics in the world - most countries are expected to be governed in one way or the other by people, killing another fellow human is a crime, and each country has soverign governing rights over itself. I mean in theory atleast these ethics are accepted as world norm in today's world.
In those days there was no world norms. Monarchies were laws unto themselves, they had to defend and control dissidence in their subjects, there were no elections, governance was a matter of inheritance and sheer brute force in many cases. There are definitely incidents that stand out - for example the so called mass execution of Jains under Mahendra varman or even the gross fact of Aditya Karikalan impaling Veerapandiyan's head on a spear and glorifying his victory.
The only way to understand all this is by accepting the fact that it was a different time in history, different values, norms, ethics, all of that. With all modern ethical norms we have situations like Sri Lanka and northern Africa, why blame history then, isn't it not?
You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villan...
I guess these kings died just in time :)
My friend, every 1 has a critic, you - me - karikalan - RRC - RJC - Kings - Gods - Lord alike... who ever - what ever... Nature is about balance, one man's pride is another's shame.
So, may be if you start reading the conquest of any king, you can always find another defeat and trace that to read the other side of the coin....
If you want to know bad mouthing on Karikala - check out the Naga records & supporters (they are everywhere from Central Lanka to North east India) :-)
This is Jean-Luc, a name i copied from the captain USS Enterprise, in Star Trek. The new name is not my real one either.:-) I just like fancy nicknames.
Well, brutality is a streak in the human dna and i was wondering if tamil people were exempt from it. That's all. Because behind the veil of the empires, Roman, british or greek, there were many incidents that make us wonder if humans could have done this. Thankfully popular struggle has brought us democracy. It's ironic that West brought us the concept, not the great indian civilisations. Even though Kudavolai system did exist.
And about that batman quote. Who are heores? The guys who defy the norms of the society if it compels them to do wrong. In that respect, very few guys qualify as heroes. In the batman movie, he's talking about Julius Caesar, who was a rabble-rousing, imperialistic manipulative politician. He's a very skilled general, and administrator is all i can say. If you want an ideal example of a hero read To Kill a Mocking Bird or watch that movie.
About the Sri Lankan situation, we are just like the palestinians, not Jews as some say. The Israelis are the most united people in the world, which we are not. Israelis are able to crush them frequently because Palestinians present no united front. The muslim neighbours betrayed them in the 1946-47 war and in the 1967 war. The present developments and the support for palestinians is mainly due to activists in America. Noam Chomsky, the James Falk and others. They made the most heard noise, and the muslim countries, mainly turkey made some token protests. Yaasir Arafat soldiered alone. If only he had some support. And Hamas uses child soldiers. No amount of pressure should force people to do that. And there are definite allegations that LTTE uses child soldiers. Tamil magazines do not confirm or deny this. English magazines scream about this.
Same with our people. We simply do not protect our own. We are more worried about 'strategic viability' 'sovereignty' and so on. And how can we ask Manmohan Singh to be 'strong' in condemning? He's one of the few people with a conscience. He cannot be strong when he is reminded of the caste problems in his own country. And we go to Austria and create caste problems there. For god's sake, we are guests in a foreign country. No wonder we are targets of racism in Australia, Canada or wherever. We must appear so vulnerable to the extremist right wingers.
I always have been of the opinion that Tamils get targeted because of our nature to establish themselves and create a sect in those countries. We don't merge and become one of them. So we are vulnerable targets of extremists of those countries. Look at malaysia, singapore, srilanka where we are present - we are a clear dominant sect of those societies. These are countries that we populated ourselves in the last few hundred years and instead of merging with them, we are still trying to establish our identities /presence/rights in these countries. (Singapore is exception - all are doing well and being a small country the local extremists are controlled there - in an affluent society extremism is subdued and it is only when you have paucity of resources and made to share these kind of fights for survival happen.). These are foreign countries that we went to better our personal economic well being. We should either adapt to their laws and expectations of the locals or get out from there and return to home land. It may sound harsh but that would be reality. Let us extend this to the present case in middle east; we go there to make monies. We are treated as second citizens - be it the saudi kingdom or the westernised Dubai. We are given some rights in dubai to worship and build temples. After few years if we go and ask the locals to create a law giving an elevated status in political hierarchy we will get beating there too. Whether we compare our SE asian countries or middle east (where we went as tholilalis or as blue/white collared workers) we cannot equal ourselves to locals. Till we imbibe that in our mind and forget about establishing too many political rights (short of creating jayasthwambam ! ) we will be hitting headlines in many countries.
And do you know there is thiruvalluvar statue waiting to be opened in bangalore for years. Why try to open a tamil poet's statue in a state other than yours ? And that too in a state where there is a tension in relations with Tamils. The statue is covered with sacks - a great dishonour to the great poet and that is what we ended up creating. Will we allow a kannada poet's statue to be opened in mylapore or in T Nagar ??
Another segment of indians who keep pulling fights / tussles with locals is Sikhs. They want their identity to be preserved and create visible differentiation (turban - beard etc) and the become vulnerable targets for extremists in those countries. I am not blaming tamils and sikhs for being passionate for what they are but tying to establish in foreign countries is creating troubles.
Hi Ganesh, there are many dimensions to this issue. Inter state politics is different from Immigrant politics and that is in turn very different from poltics of countries that have civil war going on over citizen rights. Let us not get into the last one, this is not a politican forum and such discussions are very very sensitivp
I just want to say a few words on the inter state and immigrant politics you said. Tamils live in amity in several states in India - Maharashtra for example has a very thriving tamil populace that knows marathi and hindi and has created a great community with local population. Same is true of Delhi/Haryana, Gujarat and even Assam. The issue with karnataka is somewhat odd - kannadigas traditonally are very placid, amicable people and nature somewhat opposite with tamils who are pushy, outgoing sorts so it seemed to them like a takeover of their culture and has also been exploited by politicians totally.
As far as immigrant politics go - again it is widely different country to country. There are countries that offer just work oppurtunities such as Dubai and countries like the States where immigration is actually supported and promoted. If you live in a country just to make money you can go with the flow and get out after your purpose is done. But if you live in a country, have kids, family, friends etc over extended period of time you need more than that. And the less the commonality and opportunities for blending in native culture the more people will go out on their own to create sub cultures. This is very much true of the States atleast where sub cultures exist widely from every country on the planet since there is no real culture other than the commercial work culture to fit into. In fact it is actaully better you have a thriving sub culture here because you know in times of crisis they are usually the only folks you can turn to anyways!!
Dear All Can I Please request members to restrain their posts to those relevant and of wide interst to the group... Dear Mr Jean-luc Startrek or Walsingham of the victorian era please be advised The contents of the discussions are Avaialble to the wider public and we do not want personal veiwpoints tarnishing the group Mr Ganesh Kumar! I think those statements are far from truth and most people know that...I think we all have our opinions but let us be careful that we do not hurt anyones sentiments in the process.... You cannot compare eople who go for a short term to those who emigrate and sweat and toil to the new society where they have emigrated...any one who lives abroad will tell you tamils integrate wih the local societies more than our other Indian brothers...Yes we do have our groups and meetings and temples what is wrong in that...? There's a statue for Gandhi in many counries Is that wrong? We are living in a new age world..in a smaller globe... someTamils who emigrated durig the raj to south Africa and West Indies almost have lost ties with their culture.. Thirai Kadalodium Dhiraviyam thedu....thats what we do ...whats wrong in us wanting to live life our way and be treated as fellow human beings? Kind Regards Sri
My point is, yes we created trouble in foreign countries. We should press for extradition as most nations do and at any cost insist on humane treatment. It may not succeed, but trying is the important thing. We should mingle in society, yes. And remember, the Sri Lankan problem started only when discrimination started. Once you are naturalised citizen, you ought to get the same rights as the native one. We should never forget that we are their guests, but they should also remember that we are contributing to their nation too. The Sikh problem is not the same as the Tamils problem. When we are treated with courtesy, we do return it. USA? UK? Have you counted the number of Indians in Obama's team?
We shouldn't stand by and watch when people are 'butchered'. No arrested or tried in court, but butchered. War is always an ugly business, but popping a shell into a mass of civilians... It;s a tragedy.
Anyways, this is not a political forum. I will try to avoid such topics hereafter.
Is it okay to talk about Tamil military tactics? What types of formations were used? The orders of battle? What maneuvers? Did we use the classic pincer maneuver? Who among tamil warriors can be called a military genius? Do we have records for such things? Because i see too much emphasis on personal bravery in most books and Kalingathuparani will never be taken seriously as a source for the science of battle. I love Kalki's books, but i wish he had been a little more 'jucier' in describing the battles. Mahabaratham is a good example. I just worshipped Bishma. Note that i'm not getting into war crimes or death records, just the scientific aspects.
I mean, the western battles are well recorded. Plenty of details.
Walasingham, a genuine study of war related tragedies is completley unrelated to gore and strategies used. Some of the best books written on the jewish holocaust say very little about the gory details only speak of the emotional/spiritual impact of the great tragedy. Kalki was not an expert on war, and he wrote on the same lines.
One book on war is not that different from another, if you want to debate on whether poking eyes out is better or worse than disfiguring any other way. These things mean little in the end, how people were impacted is what matters the most. You say you like the Mahabharat - I said reading the original Ganguli version page to page. You will have enough 'details and manuevers' to last a few lifetimes.
Land you were born vs land you live or land your ancestors were born etc ? Truth is, men fight for land - for money - for supremacy, does not matter who or how, sets change, base line does not.We have been doing this for ages now.
Are sinhalese native to Lanka? Are Pallavas native to Kanchi ? Bro - there is no point chasin wild geese like these. NYC was the centre of Panagea continent... so who really was where ? Ultimately, War means collateral damage,so work for peace of humanity. Life is not a privilege, it is a gift, use it for the benefit of others - no point complaining of what has happened.Bad things happen (even to good people) but time puts patches on them.
PS: Bishma may have been the noblest of all atman at that time, but the fact that he stood out with the wrong crowd, was the reason he was not glorified. The Lord gave him an opportunity to redeem his glory by singing the sahasranama.
We have a Gandhi statue in front of Wellington City Railway Station (New Zealand). In the same statue Gandhi's quote "We must be the change We want to make" is inscribed as well.
The Indian community here gifted the Statue to the City council and the statue was unveiled by our high commissioner last year on Mahatma's birthday. We were very happy to have our Mahatma's statue in one of the prime locations were thousands of people gather everyday!
The Gandhi statue is Union Square, New York is a pretty famous one. Lots of indian couples even get married in front of it.Come independance day or gandhi jayanthi poor Gandhi has so many garlands there he can hardly stand :)) just kidding but just to say the indian populace there a thriving example of cross cultural integration.
I think there is a street in New Zealand named Netaji Street or something. They showed it on tv during the recent India NZ cricket series. Apparently some Indian soldier settled in NZ did it.
I am not sure about Netaji street in New Zealand, but there is a suburb nearby Wellington called Khandallah where all the streets were named after various places in India, for eg., madras, lucknow, simla, kashmir etc.,
There is a huge indian migrant population here in NZ especially from Gujarat and most of these are related to their efforts. There is a bell(mani) here in Wellington which apparently came from tamil nadu and there was a book published by one of our tamil expatriate from Sri Lanka with regards to the bell. Also one of the oldest ship built in calcutta during the 19th century is in Picton harbour (Picton is some 40 - 50 nautical miles away from Wellington). The ship was completly built in burma teak wood and used by the brits to travel all the way to NZ.
I will check thro my friends here to get some more details about the Wellington bell and will share it here.
Exactly what i mean. Caesar was corrupted by power. As Batman says of Dent, "He was the best among us. Joker brought him to our level." As Joker says of Batman, "You truly are incorruptible aren't you?" So as i said, a real hero is the one who is able to withstand. Caesar was a fallen hero at best, like Anakin Skywalker aka Darth Vader and Harvey Dent and Periya Pazhuvettaraiyar.
Quite a movie that was. Another super dialogue "Joker: This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object" They destroy each other.
> But Periya > Pazhuvettaraiyar was an aristocrat, never a hero. He got corrupted by lust not by power.
Hi sivaram
perhaps PP was supporting a just cause, to get back kandaraditya's lineage on to the chola throne. after all maduranthakans right to the thanjai throne was much more than aditya karikala's.
dark Knight is truly a fantastic movie...! and the dialogue was already used in one of the Clint Eastwood movies I guess.. ( I cud n remember the name of the movie) I am talking about the unstoppable force meets an immovable object dialogue..!
Also ESPN / prime sports used this dialogue during the nineties when Sachin and Shane Warne were at their prime..! they kept on repeating this dialogue during the ads....!
The ads show Sachin and Warne duelling and this dialogue (This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object!) comes back and forth...!
That dialogue is getting cliched. I think they used it for Federer-Nadal rivalry too. Still, every time i see that dialogue, i get goosebumps, because the people applied with that tag almost always deserved it.