Go to OML and ask for a palm leaves Manuscript titled "Jeeranotharana"
this is the one that was written by Desighan in 1323 AD., sitting under the Triruvannamalai Temple Gopuram.
Secondly, according to me now we are in 21st century and we need not worry what our forefathers said.
We must analyst the subject find the truth and use them for our welfare!
There is only one group the Historian, The great Historian S. Krishnasamy Aiyengar, in one statement said that he has a doubt about the copper plate grants that the Jeer of Tirukkurungudi Mutt was holding! and he sent a report to English about that and recorded. More to come!
Dear Member Who was Desigan? Whether he was a Poet of 1323 AD or atleast had a small kingdom? Or a begger sitting in front of Tiruvannamalai Temple? Why did he write like that about Ramanujar? Was there any evidance in inscriptions or copper plates ? Is there any other historical reference about him? Ramanujar strongly condemned the Human Sacrifice in the name of God by Kapaligas. This has inscriptional evidance. How could such a man would be the cause of killings of men in Srirangam? Generally Chola kings patronised both Saivam and Vaishnavam and were ready to give whatever the saints wanted. What was the need to go to srilanka and to steal Buddha idol, did he explain? As you said we are in 21st century and no need to take what our forefathers have said. Why bother about Desigan's scripts? We can take many good things from Ramanujar"s history. Dr.S.Krishnasamy Iyengar was the Professor in History in MadrasUniversity from 1914 to 1923.He also said that there was only one Tamil Sangam at Madurai in his "South Indian Contributions to Indian History II " and later accepted they were three in his "Menimekalai at its Historical Settings". He was a man of moods. Similarly there are many types of historians. Some go after inscriptions, some go after copper plates, Some go for temples and their stories and some go after contravertial subjects in history. Whatever it may be, as you have said, history must be used for our welfare only. If any of the matter, even it was a fact and to cause harm to the harmony, it should not be disclosed openly. So, I humbly request you not to write anything harming others' feelings, whether it was a fact or fiction.
So, I humbly request you not to write anything harming others' feelings, whether it was a fact or fiction.
The feeling is something different.
The truth will live long and if it sees sentiments it is not truth.
Hope You might have read about sambuvaraier who was Jains who converted in to Saivas. and constructed Rajagopuram of Tiruvannamalai.
OK I am sure you people instead of reading history and looking in to facts seeing sentiments and your hearts are not strong enough to accept the truth.
You prefer to praise each others work and to me only a heated arguments will make you read more history books.
Secondly The kapalighas are a Medicinal professionals who use to dig the grave for research and to search for the cause of death and how to over come the diseases affected and caused death so that they can prevent the diseases.
This was having a different views among Public whose opinions were that they ate Dead human bodies.
According to me Mr.Visvaksenan you need to read more books to know the truth about history.
I am in the History, found the Supportive therapy from Vedas for curing Cancer and a honarary Member of AACR and ACS., British Coma recovery Cell, German paralytic Society and they wanted me to send a copy of my Ph.D. Thesis to them for review.
Now if you people think that you are a group of person whose aim is only reading and sharing the positive views I feel there is no use.
Even Dr.Annie Besant and Jinna raja in 1895, in occult chemistry drawn more figurs similor to our KOLAM., which I was thinking of presenting here. Now I feel it is unnessary since you are are all full of sentiments rather than the reality shows.
S. Ramachandran Epigraphist, whose view point is recorded in Sishri.org and that of this other researcher Ramachandran are two different men. Both know me as well, and I am beyond any such deep research and analysis as I do not find time to dwelve into research on history as the current state of temples bother more than fighting out history of past. As because both may quote my availability and issuing proofs, I may just do a messenger's job for the sake of other interested PS members. That's all.
I too wait for the details about this Desigan and how come he is construed as an authority on Ramanuja's life. I really salute your readiness to accept a change to history (a neutral mind???) even without ascertaining the veracity of the claims of the new angle and the author of the new angle, when it suits you completely.
Sentiments aside, I am ready to accept any change to the history put forth, if the evidence presented carries enough water.
I see that Epigraphist S Ramachandran sir has some good points. According to him it seems that the birth date of Ramanuja has been goofed up by an exact span of 60 years, which is the span for the Thamizh years.
While the possibilities of Kulothunga I being Krimikanda has been put down clearly from the evidences available, this seems to be a new find. I request our Dhivakar Sir to analyse this more carefully and come out with his inference. Everything looks alright in this version, except that Vikrama Chozha, here, precedes Kulothunga II who (according to ) S Ramachandran Sir is the possible Krimikanta. According to the Srivaishnava Guruparampara Vikrama Chozha is construed as the son of Krimikanta. One need to analyse if Rajadhi Raja had a name Vikrama too.
Raja Narayana Sambuvaraiyer constructed a gopuram in in Tiruvannamalai in A.D.1335 and 1336. Sri Nigamantha Desigan, siting under the Gopuuram wrote, (Nigamantha Desigan Period 1268-1369)"Jeeranotharana Dasaga" an agama text about the construction of Siva temples and Sivalingam. He is the Son of Vamadeva Sivachar. ThisPalm leaf is with OML.( Gopinatha Rao, Elements of Hindu Iconography , The law Printing Press, Madras 1916 pp 301-302.) The meaning of this Jeeranotharana is Jeeranothanu = The force that can pull the extranal universal force in to it Mahakumbha : the famous and rare collection of Herbals packed in a Kumbha kalasa Abhishktha = Start with sprinkling Abhikshanam = every second Dhaksha = The ten songs that was composed in fav.
Here the vastu applys its technology. "Vastu regulates the properations of the Temple according to cosmic order and cyclical numbers. He is the Meta physical plan of the Temple. Between Rahu and vastu is the image God. Vastu gives the frame work and rahu (rays and vibrations from South Pole) fills it with the exhaustible wealth of the forms of the nature" (Stella Kramnisch, Hindu Temple vol II University of Calcutta 1946 pp-330-331)
In a book edited in 1905 ( I think) the Author, quotes about Desigan that The First Chapter about Desghan is not available (May be hidden) and if any one happened to see that should exuse themselves and see that the mistake commited by elders can be treated as a mistake done by the lord Perumal.
He need not have mentiond that if he is sur of non availabilty of the sourses.
In AD 1070, there was a revolution in Srirangam and Kannanoor, Adhi Rajendra was killed and Ramanuja escaped to Mysore.
--- In ponniyinselvan@yahoogroups.com, rramachandran_1951@... wrote: > > Raja Narayana Sambuvaraiyer constructed a gopuram in in Tiruvannamalai in A.D.1335 and 1336.
this was the hoysala period in thiruvannamalai
(Nigamantha Desigan Period 1268-1369)"Jeeranotharana Dasaga" an agama text about the construction of Siva temples and Sivalingam. He is the Son of Vamadeva Sivachar. ThisPalm leaf is with OML.
remarkable. a palm leaf surviving for 700 to 800 years.
> > I see that Epigraphist S Ramachandran sir has some good points. According to him it seems that the birth date of Ramanuja has been goofed up by an exact span of 60 years, which is the span for the Thamizh years. > > While the possibilities of Kulothunga I being Krimikanda has been put down clearly from the evidences available, this seems to be a new find. I request our Dhivakar Sir to analyse this more carefully and come out with his inference. Everything looks alright in this version, except that Vikrama Chozha, here, precedes Kulothunga II who (according to ) S Ramachandran Sir is the possible Krimikanta. According to the Srivaishnava Guruparampara Vikrama Chozha is construed as the son of Krimikanta. One need to analyse if Rajadhi Raja had a name Vikrama too. ==============
Dear V Venkatesan
look at that another perspective too..
Kulothunga II @ Anabayan, who honoured Kundrathur SEKKIZHAR who compiled PERIYAPURANAM from Thiruthondarthogai - which is comprised of nayanmar episodes - cutting across caste and creed, solcial status etc., wherein seveal Kings are placed as Nayanmars along with several followers for simple walks of life !!
And if he is Kirumi Kanda chozhan (chozha King who was affected by throat Cancer ?!) - are we getting in to another Conspiracy theory - against Periyapuranam and in turn Saivism ?
I dont know what to say about this. Nigamantha Desigan whom you are referring to, ascribing a period of 1268 to 1369 is a very important Acharya of Srivaishnavas. He was born in a village called Thoopul in present day Kanchipuram. His Father is Anantha Suri and Mother is Thotharamba. He has authored, close to 100 works, predominantly in Sanskrit and some in Thamizh.
He is one of the Vaishnava Acharyas who have rebutted the Saivism and Advaitha completely. His love for Ramanuja is very popular. He has composed "Yathiraja Sapthathi" (meaning "70 verses in praise of Yathiraja=Ramanuja) in which he has praised Ramanuja and his kindness. And you say that he has written that Ramanuja killed thousands of labourers who built Srirangam temple?
Though Desikan is more of a Common Name, "Nigamantha Desikan" is an unique name of this above Desikan only. And your neutrality, open mind to history, and honesty has now gone to the extent of changing his father from Ananta Suri to Vamadeva Sivachar. Can you kindly tell me that where did you verify regarding these details and how did you conclude that Vamadeva Sivachar is the father of Nigamantha Desikan and not Ananta Suri?
I think one need to re-write the dictionary for the meaning of the words "neutral", "open mind" etc from you. And when questioned about the authenticity of your claims, you try to easily discard the question as being from a Sentimental person and history is apart from sentiments? I am sorry to say this, but I have seen your sentiment in your post on "7 parukkai Puliyodharai in Thiruninravur temple".
And you say that you are doing some research. I place my serious doubts regarding the motives and intentions of your research until you come out clean on the questions that I have asked above here.
My salutations to your "readiness to accept anything that is written against Vaishnavas" remains.
Please check this. According to Madhura Vijayam, (Please correct me if I am wrong), the Sambuvarayars were defeated still a "SiRRarasar" confined to Thiruvannamalai during this period. Hoysala, Veera Vallala is defeated by the Turkish Invaders around this time. It also seems that Sambuvarayars accepted Ulugh Khan the invader and hence were spared the killing. This is also the time when the Vijayanagar kingdom started to flourish from Harihara I and Bukka I.
Yes you are correct. With all those excellent accounts about Kulothunga II, when one says that he could be possibly "Krimikanta Chozha", then the Conspiracy Theory angle comes to the fore. I have not concluded that Kulothunga II is "Krimikanta". I only say that Epigraphist Ramachandran Sir's new angle seems more closer to Guruparampara accounts.
Let me clarify clearly that some Vaishnavite accounts are real exaggerations and I am aware of it. But, with the limited scope for verification that we have for our history, we cannot completely discard an angle or account. While the Exaggeration is highly possible, an unpleasant fact about him is also possible. I am not an authority on history to conclude on this. So I still keep my fingers crossed.
That is precisely why I requested our Dhivakar Sir to do more research on these lines.
Please refer the book (Gopinatha Rao, Elements of Hindu Iconography , The law Printing Press, Madras 1916 pp 301-302.). Mr Gopinatha Rao says that there is an inscription on this!
You must know one thing Venkatesh,
When The ASI people visited Tirupati in 1904, One senior Epigraphist writes the people residing in Tripathy, had buried all the rock inscription in the mud and thrown them in the tank and well.
Why they did?
It is because they wanted to destroy all the evidences that Tripaty had which was a Temple with DURGA, which later converted in to Padmavathy.
Want evidences?
Mr. Venkatesh, if doubt comes it must be cleared immediately and all should be registered.
When a group of person discussing about history, we are just analysing the matters that happened in the past, thro which we can study the ancestors.
OK venkatesh, Now we are chanting Nalaira Divya Prabandham, Devaram etc., which was written by Alwars and Nayan mars.
What we learned from them? Are we applying our research mind?
Vedas quote NaNo technology and curing of certain diseases and how to get a good child with great knowledge.
If we follow that our community (Human) will grow strong.
But what are we doing?
Just wearing the silk dhoti, sitting before the fire pouring Ghee in to fire, throwing the Wooden sticks, creating smoke and cough and feeding the bramins etc.,
We are seeing them as god.
But what Vedas teach?
Have any one asked???
What is Agama who created it what for it is???
Is it a god???
Dear Members of this group I wish you to wait till my thesis compleates.
My thesis carries the answers for all these questions.
This is not a single day work, the work that I am doing for more than 15 years.
In the last 15 years I went to so many places, visited so many libraries. read manuscripts, Palm leaves, and much more.
The essence of this will come in next couple of years.
I think I already mentioned, I am a honorary Member of ACS, AACR, who are waiting for my thesis for review.
What ever I quote here has an evidences and supportive documents.
So please tell me in advance for what are all you need evidences and I will quote the book name and page no and it is up to you to look in to that book and get your doubts cleared.
Regarding Tirupaty inscriptions it is in Madras Record Room and in ASI.
dear rama chandran > Dear Members of this group I wish you to wait till my thesis compleates. > > What ever I quote here has an evidences and supportive documents. > > So please tell me in advance for what are all you need evidences and I will quote the book name and page no and it is up to you to look in to that book and get your doubts cleared.
all the evidences you are talking about are only secondary sources.
in fact most contreversial topics in history seem to have only secondary source evidences.
these are not absolute and can be challenged. i feel you are taking these things too personally.
in this group we feel a healthy debate always opens up new possibilities for learning( learning and research are two different things)
there are many qualified people in this group who have contributed substantially to the field of history and still come back to this group to learn.
lets take this easy and make moderators job easier.
Let me see if I can take a xerox copy of that page from that book. I referred the book at ASI Chennai.
See some time the first edition of the book is valued as top as it has full details. The second and third editions some parts might have removed for reasons well known to them.
Accordingly, You must know Lankatipati Ravana also wrote Commentary on Rig Veda but those manuscripts are with Lahore!
But when Venkata Madhava had copied it, he removed Ravanas name and written his name. When Sayana rewrite this he put his own name and no one bothered the Commentary should have its originality and valued.
But Lahore has a collection of Rig Veda manuscripts which was published in 1914 at a seminar.
Ravana wrote about Arkaprakasa, the Jyotjy of the Sun, which forms as a child in the womb., and calculates the changes a foetus gets in the mother's womb.
Based on this Caraka Samhita followed and Jivika had written and had taken to China.
So the first edition of a book is a must.
Secondly, I am also having a book Esoteric Iconography of Japanese twin mandalas, written by Lokesh chanda, mentions that he went to Japan with his Guru who guided him.
But in later editions he simply omitted his guru's name and mentions that he alone did the whole episode.
Everyone or say the maximum people in the world wants to buy the name with money and publish in their name.
I know a scientist who found some thing new in his dept., and wanted to analyse and seek his superiors' permission, the Hod., permitted him, and made a condition that he must put Hod's name and as per his directive carrying on the research.
So it is natural that the matter appeared in the first edition might have replaced.
By the by there are chances also that the name of the book might have wrongly typed!
I will see that you are getting a copy of that page!
I completely agree. Let me clarify I don't think the line of debate by the said researcher was very mature and both VV and RV responded very maturely to it. Mixing social issues with research facts and going down different lines of thinking is not mature debating at all.
But as Arun rightly said discouraging group members from sharing opposign views in the interest of 'harmony' is very disappointing that too from someone as respected as SPS. Harmony is not the absence of opposing views but respect for different views stated maturely. If people do not share their views and are afraid of 'hurting sentiments' as Arun said you can have sentiments around your favorite dish, the clothes you wear, and everything on the planet - then it does not lead to any informative or thoughtful discussions. Even less the said of social awareness and the need to refine our thinking. I am not surprised of the quote by the said scholar since I did have some personal experience on social issues with him which were not at all impressive considering his scholarly achievements.
Keep aside Thirupathy for the moment. No diversions please. Let us come to the Ramanuja issue.
1. You first said that, a Srivaishnava himself has written that Ramanuja killed 1000s of people who built Srirangam temple. 2. When evidence was requested, this Srivaishnava becomes a "Smartha" by name Desigan. 3. When more information was requested, this Desigan became "Nigamantha Desigan" who, contrary to your statement, was indeed a Srivaishnava. 4. I pointed out and listed out all his works and requested you to identify the work in which he had supposedly written your alleged statement about Ramanuja. 5. I also pointed out that contrary to YOUR belief, Nigamantha Desigan had authored a 70 verse poetry on Ramanuja GLORIFYING him. 6. For this you took shadow under Gopinatha Rao. 7. SPS Sir requested more details as he could not find the references that you said. 8. You replied saying that if those references were not found, then they could have been conveniently removed in subsequent editions.
Excellent path for a researcher. Please go ahead and complete your 15 year old research. I will wait for you to publish your article, which will bubble with irrefutable evidences, I suppose.
Lastly, now, a diversion from Ramanuja to Thirupathi, as Thirupathi is very controversial for centuries now and atleast theories can be easily spun there than on Ramanuja. I wish you stick to Ramanuja episode first before moving on to Thirupathi episode. Please provide concrete evidences before moving on to another Conspiracy Theory.
I never mistook you. I looked at your mail only in the same vein as you stated below. In fact, until S Ramachandran Sir's view are proven beyond doubt, I will go with our Dhivakar Sir's observation in his "Thirumalai Thirudan".
I will never mistake you. On contrary, I request you not to mistake my combative postings.