Hi I was just checking up on the thirumala temple to find its area and then this doubt came up.
of course we must have discussed it in the past too. vinjamoor venkatesh must be able to handle this.
we hear of the legend of ramanuja and the contreversy of whther thirumala was a muruga temple or a perumal temple.
but havent the alvars sung about thirupathi. wasnt that 500 to 600 years before ramanuja. how could a contreversy run for so long? or was it generated later?
(incidentally also read in a jain site that the statue is of a thithankara like saravanabelgola and was converted into a hindu shrine)
Venkat, I have heard some strong arguments that Tirumala was a Buddhist shrine, dont know regarding muruga or Jain shrine. The statue supposedly resembles some Bodhisattva paintings in Ajanta. Again don't know how true this is but there are books and researches done on it extensively.
VJ, I have read this book - Jamnadas, a very very long time ago. Thanks for e link,must read some chapters again.
Jamnadas is not an atheist or non beliver, and his arguments are truly interesting. One that I do remember is that of Tirumala being the only 'Eka moorthi' shrine, all over south - meaning even no Ganesha or Navagrahas there.
I feel that our Dhivakar Sir is an expert in this, than me, due to the massive research he has carried out for his novel Thirumalai Thirudan. However let me state whatever little I know.
You are right. Thirumalai has been sung by Azhwars pretty much. In fact the number of pAsurams dedicated to Thirumalai is more than that of Srirangam. Ideally Thirumalai should have been the No. 1 Divyadesam. But it just lost its place to Srirangam only for the reason that 11 out of 12 Azhwars have sung pAsurams on Srirangam while only 10 have sung about Thirumalai.
Even before the Azhwars, SilappadhikAram, done by a Jain, clearly indicates that Thirumalai Deity is Vishnu. It terms "mAyOn mEyak kADuRai vEngkadam". "mAyOn" in ancient Thamizh literature is purely for mAl or ThirumAl, Vishnu.
controversy about the nature of the deity in Thirumala, before the times of Ramanuja. The Vaishnavite Guruparampara says " in the recent times during Ramanuja a new controversy has arisen about the nature of the Deity in Thirumala. There were people who say it is Siva and some who say it is Muruga and some who say it is Kali. However Ramanuja laid to rest all the doubts about the nature of deity and proved that it is indeed Vishnu.". It also gives some account as to how he established the true nature of the deity.
The claims by the Jains are laid to complete rest as a Ilango Adigal, a Jain himself has clearly stated that the deity of Thirumalai is indeed Vishnu. The buddhist claims, I have to read through the link given by VJ. But looking at the dates of Ilango Adigal, who indeed have clearly said that Thirumalai Deity is indeed Vishnu, any counter claims can be at best doubted with regards to the motive of the person writing about it.
VV, I have not seen this fully - in the original Jamnadas book I read there was no dedication to EVR. It must have been something added later on by those who did the eversion of this book. Jamnadas was a follower of Ambedkar, who was a Buddhist himself.
I can understand your viewpoint that his work might be buddhist biased defintiely. It is not in the least as virulent and anti hindu as EVR. Don't know of history of enemity between azhwars but sometimes history does not always favor sentiments. I know about food history and I do know vegetarianism as we practice today has quite a lot of buddhist input. Also we have to give room for the fact that both Ambedkar and EVR fought significant evils in hindu caste system that are impossible to deny.
All that said - what would you think are the origins of Tirumala? Why is the temple different than other temples? Is it really such a bad thing if it was proven the temple had buddhist origins - both Ezhumalayan and Gautama Buddha are symbols of great mercy and peace to their followers after all?
> All that said - what would you think are the origins of Tirumala? Why is the temple different than other temples? Is it really such a bad thing if it was proven the temple had buddhist origins - both Ezhumalayan and Gautama Buddha are symbols of great mercy and peace to their followers after all? >
Hi Maloo
my basic question is getting sidelined.
it was how did a contreversy arise 600 years after its sung in the divyaprabandam as a vaishnava shrine.
any ideas like change in religious afliation of the kings etc. diwaker sir enga irukeenga??
Tirupati la irukirathu Murugana - Perumala - ithu oru trick question mathiri.
Here is another hat in the ring :)
I have heard from some acharya's that the Athi Deva in Tirupati is Bala, the eternal youth, even hence the name Bala'ji' (Ji apparently out of respect) also that it is the reason behind the long hair of the Lord. The playful youth form is pure cosmic energy at its maximum and has the tendency to grant what one wishes for 'as per actuals', also called as Venkata ramana Sankata Harana for dissipating the negative energy by equalizing it with the cosmic energy. Many features of child like behavior is exhibited by the Lord.
More:
Interestingly, Padmavati thayar is mentioned in Skanda purana...
Who the Lord in Tirupati is, may not be the real question, but the Lord IS, that is real and He is of pure cosmic energy as that of the Aadi mulam.
I have found many striking similarities between Muruga and his Maman. I hope to compile them soon enough.
Reading through various Thirupugazh and other documents of Skanda, it is a real effort to decode their relations but it looks so far like a mirror reflection of each other.
PS: There are theories on the fixing of weapons to the Lord, but from what I learnt, the Large Namam that covers the eyes is very much newer. I hope some one would clarify / explain. Also, the original lord is only a few feet rather than the large dressed up version.
VV, I agree with you 100% that EVR's approach and strategy were very much hate oriented - he could certainly have taken a more positive approach like Thondaraddipodi aazhvaar or even Mahakavi Bharathi. I only meant to say he fought a valid *cause* which is in fact still valid. Casteism is much deeper than brahmin-anti brahmin stances, or even hindu stance.
Ravi, very well put and very nice interpretation of Balaji.
The original idol is only a few feet tall than the 'dressed up version'...Tirupathi is a multi billion dollar business, long ceased to be a spiritual place. Less the said of it the better. The most recent is fingeprinting of devotees for darshan. Regarding the 'actual nature' stories abound, Variyar actually made claims it was Murugan and the namam was put to hide thiruneeru and all that.
There is no harm at all investigating the history of the temple and the deity but sometimes we hindus are obsessed/very posessive that it is 'our deity'. Kannano kandano buddhano kankanda deivam, podadha?
> > The original idol is only a few feet tall than the 'dressed up version'.. hearsay but could be true
the lord is less than 4 feet tall he is as soft as sponge to touch leather slippers are made for him every year and the slippers get worn out a mattress is left in the sanctum every night and is removed in a crumpled state in the morning.
venketesh
.Tirupathi is a multi billion dollar business, long ceased to be a spiritual place. Less the said of it the better. The most recent is fingeprinting of devotees for darshan. Regarding the 'actual nature' stories abound, Variyar actually made claims it was Murugan and the namam was put to hide thiruneeru and all that. > > There is no harm at all investigating the history of the temple and the deity but sometimes we hindus are obsessed/very posessive that it is 'our deity'. Kannano kandano buddhano kankanda deivam, podadha? > > Malathi >
> I have found many striking similarities between Muruga and his Maman. I hope to compile them soon enough.
2 wives each is one hill lover
many of tamil songs including arunagiri mention murugan as maayon marugan
i recently read one pamban swami song where muruga is mentioned a lakshim's marumagan.
venketesh
> > Reading through various Thirupugazh and other documents of Skanda, it is a real effort to decode their relations but it looks so far like a mirror reflection of each other. > > PS: There are theories on the fixing of weapons to the Lord, but from what I learnt, the Large Namam that covers the eyes is very much newer. I hope some one would clarify / explain. > Also, the original lord is only a few feet rather than the large dressed up version. > > - R >
It is sure complicated how the messages are conveyed, Both Valli and Deva Kunjari are Lakshmi's forms. But it is no secret that they both reside in the heart of the Lord and cannot be separated from him. If they are Lakshmi and they reside in him, that makes the two factions one, which I am not yet ready to stir another nest. More: Each consort holds a Thamarai and an Alli on their hands (Similar traits from Malayappa swamy and others). There are so many such traits, Sudarshana submerged into the Lord during the war with Tarakasura and that can happen to only one.
I believe from a granular level the only path to salvation is to take one God and believe in him to deliver, hence the Nayanmar or Alwars had followed one path, I personally dont think there is any difference between any of the Lord almighty.
Thats what makes Tirupati so special, have we not thought of any Lord and the Master at Tirupati shows that person to us ?
- R PS: The Namam is pachai karpuram and it has magnetic tendencies towards shalagramam. I have some hearsay that the first Namam was a glob of Pachai karpuram that got stuck on the face and it was shaped to be a Namam.No namam should ever cover the eyes of the Lord.
Muruga is actually the combined unit of Narayana and Sankara-Shakti in reality, it is said as Siva Balan Udithanan not pirandhan.
Our favourite Perumal has the uncanny way of giving darshan to all his devotees as they want to see him in the deepest of their minds. Every time I see him, I can only visualize Varaha murthy not even my own Lord Muruga...No wonder some one says he is Budha :)
- R PS: Long hair of the Lord may be considered as a feminine attribute, however I think otherwise.
Quote: Tirupathi is a multi billion dollar business, long ceased to be a spiritual place.
Malathy: Tirupati will be a high end spiritual place for ages to come, no man or collection of men by the millions or time at its best...have any power to even dent 1% of the vitality of the place.
I know of Non Believers / Atheists whose lives have changed, suffering people who have had changes in lives just by going there on a casual note.
Yes, people make use of the wealth that comes there by nature. I dont see anything wrong, as long as the Lord permits that, I am sure he has His plans for the ones out there and are not comprehendable by low end resumes of ours :-).
I am still upset that it was given over to AP from TN, may be that it was Lord's plan so... illena Original Palani Murugan navapashana silaiku nadanthagathi thaan nadanthu irukkum...
Ravi, am not disputing at all the spiiritual power of the place - am a great devotee myself. And nothing at all to do with any individuals misusing their wealth either.
I am talking of the out and out commercialisation of the temple, which is not limited to Tirupathi of course but Tirupathi leads the lot in that regard. The laddu prasad is actually not a prasad at all, never offered to the Lord. It is just a condiment made to boost sales and revenue to the temple.The darshan is a bare glimpse, even if you pay for it. Even the early morning seva has been advanced to 3-4 am while aagama vidhis say sunrise or ushad kala should be the right time.
I was trying to book for seva ahead of time from US and heard now they want fingerprints to make sure person booked is actaully going!! How far does this go?
The magnetic power of the Lord while continue to draw millions of devotees but it is high time someone started paying attention to the commercialisation and how far they are going to take it.
Long hair is not in the least 'feminine' by those days - Rama and Krishna had long hair and so did most pauranical charactersn.Valmiki describes in detail how Sri Rama's beautiful long hair was braided into locks during exile, Arjuna's long hair was supposedly one of his most handsome features!! Most warriors and kings had atleast shoulder length hair - if you look at paintings and sculptures. The modern male hair cut is truly a latter day western concept that came in later. Even in the west Jesus supposedly had long hair and so do most men in Michael Angelo's paintings.
> > - R > > PS: Long hair of the Lord may be considered as a feminine attribute, however I think otherwise. > >
Hi,
rown fashioned out of his long locks of hair - Jata makuta. Vishnu is shown wearing a ornamented crown - Karandmakuta. However, there is an exception to this. In the shore temple, the jala /sthala sayana perumal ( the one with the broken hand - it had been broken during mahendra time, and as per his court poet of some time - Acharya Dandin in one of works comments thus - the pallava sculptors were such expert craftsmen that they repaired the image so perfectly - again leads us to some questions - the two shiva shrines sandwiching the vishnu shrine in mallai are rajasimha structures - but Dandin says thus
Anyway back to subject, this sayana perumal is depicted with Jatamakuta. Swaminathan sir commented - maybe the sculptor realistically depicted him - normally you would remove your crown while you rest/ sleep
If he is 4 feet tall and considered a 'Baalagan' that is quite possible, children 12-14 years male or female can grow hair that long if left uncut. Krishan's companion Gopis the young lads are all long haired lads only.
I am just talking practically and keeping in mind hairstyles of olden times - and how the idol was constructed maybe influenced by that perhaps.
> I am still upset that it was given over to AP from TN, may be that it was Lord's plan so... illena Original Palani Murugan navapashana silaiku nadanthagathi thaan nadanthu irukkum...
I read the history of the TTD the first organised control of the temple was done by the british themselves. organised a trust and a mutt.
Do you know that there is a version that "Tirupathi Balaji" is not really a vaishnavite temple but the original deity is only Murugan. And that is why Tamil Leaders like the late Ma Po Sivagnanam and others were ferocisouly fighting with the Govt of India to retain Tirupati and Tiruttani with Tamilnadu when state boundaries were redrawn after Independence.
It is said that centuries back, when the saivite and vaishnavite war was going on, to retain Tirupathi as a vaishnavite shrine, some secret plans were made to show that the original deity is Balaji and that is why a big Thirunamam was put up to cover up his face! But one of my uncles says that it is neither Balaji nor Murugan but only Ambal! Ambal's face is covered up with lot of decorations including the Thirunamam ! He tells me that many years back, on a very rare occasion, alongwith friends he had the opportunity to take darshan of the deity when all the abhishekams were performed and at that time they were able to find out the truth! Now you can't even stand a few seconds near the sanctum sanctorum which is another story!
This again takes us back to the thought of Bala. Bala is very unique, it is said to be the energy force of all the deities we pray.
Bala is primarily attributed to Maha Vishnu's power(shakti) as the athi devetha.
Bala is beyond any sex as God itself ism hence portrayed in a child like form.
Bala is often taken as a small lady (hence ambal), Bala can also classify as Bala Kumaran (Krishna or Muruga - both are bala kumarans). Bala is also our own Bala'Ji'.
Being Bala, that force is also a part of the budhist belief (has to be being the force of any deity).
I am convinced that the cosmic force there is of Maha Vishnu or Adi bagawan in which ever name you want to call it.