Hi friends, I jus find resemblance of D'Artaganan of ThreeMusketeers a book by Alexander Dumas with our vanthiyathevan.The introduction of both the characters in thy novel are jus similar. The loyalty shown by these ppl towards their king are vividly expressed.I jus expressed my view and jus forgive me if my comparison is wrong.
Bhuvana, you have a point. I dont' read much of english historicals but I have seen movies and Vandhiya devan is very much like DArtagnan. In Kalki's kalvanin kadhili the hero is very much like Ian Fleming's hero of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.
My uncle who is a doctorate in literature says PS is strongly influenced by Walter Scott. Maybe Venkat can enlighten us on the influence of western authors on Kalki's writing.
Sometime back we had an interesting discussion about Alexandar Dumas's influence on Kalki. As you said, there are similarities between the 4th muskateer and VD, also the resemblance with Milady and Nandini are striking.
Thanks Sivaram, I rarely read those history blogs due to lack of time but was totally fascinated by the discussion of Manohara Vs PS.
My question remains though - did Kalki ever acknowledged being influenced by Dumas/Walter Scott/other historical authors? Dumas's Counte of Monte Cristo is a text book for historical and long novels with complex plots. I mean the way he takes the story through to completeion with literally no loose ends has very few parellels.
Hi Malathi one of kalkis short stories is a direct repetition of the climax of a tale of 2 cities. one man volunteering for his lovers lovers gallows.
kalki in his early life was heavily influenced by the library of ayyasamy the postmaster who was his neighbour and later guardian. very many books in that library were tattered copies of these classics.
rahul may differ but nandini is to strong a charecter to follow the path of milady of 3M. also the he scene of tying and throwing her into a pyre seems somuch like around the world in 80 days.
Dear Venkatesh Kalki's first Guru Ayyasamy Iyer was not a postmaster. He was the person who ran the 'Pandurangan Pallikoodam' in Manalmedu, the village of Kalki. (In the afteryears Kalki reproduced him as the postmaster character in his Vishamandhiram story). Ayyasamy Iyer observed the smartness of Kalki and teached him both english and Tamil. He introduced him Edwin Arnold's Asia Jyothi, Ramakrishna Paramahamsar and Vivekananda, Meher books. Dharyendranath's Ramayan, and Meds Tylor and Lord Gowranga's books. Kalki wrote many stories based on the stories in other languages, mostly from Bengali. His first translation work was Mahatma's Sathiya Sothanai in Navasakthi. Goldsmith and Dickens were the authors who were admired by Kalki and he was having the opinion that nobody can write more hillarious than them. Kalki's novels were mainly have the styles of Walter Scott and Victor Hugo, which he once accepted.
Hey all, Thanks for making it clear... I also found resemblance with nandhini and Milady de winter!! Then someone made a point of Count of monte chirst...None can forget the character of Mercedes!!! some similarity with our sivakami both failed in love...
My personal opinion is that Kalki was enamoured by D'Artagnan and Milady De Winter hence wove them into PS. Nandini is a strong character but i doubt whether she is strong'er' than Milady who was simply evil!! Kalki led us to believe Nandini(BTW "Nandini" is an equally beautiful name as Milady De Winter) had a noble cause for being evil and tried to bring in some good in her character. Milady was pure evil in an incredibly beautiful package :):) I think if Kalki had portrayed Nandini as pure evil then it would been more dramatic. I think he got confused.
I dont think D'Artagnan had anything to do with Vanthiyathevan other than his intro scene. THe stories are similar but i think VT is different. PS is similar to 3M in some ways but thats probably because both of them are historicals. They require a evil woman, a pretty princess, a troubled prince, a middle-class hero. Hence the similarities.
Thanks Venkat. Yes I agree Nandini had more human touches than Milady. Of course in accordance with the times Kalki could not afford her character to be sullied, although he did go further than most writers of his time. Ian Fleming's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (originally a book then a movie, yes Fleming did not write just Bond) - Kalvanin Kadhili, especaily the scene where police arrive to arrest him in a play is taken out of it literally.I suspect this has its origins in some other novel too, although not sure what.
Personally I believe Kalki was at his best with SS, Thyaga Bhoomi and fundamentally stories very close to culture. I would have respected him more if he had acknowledged the writers he respected, or maybe he did and was not recorded, that is possible too.
> Kalki's first Guru Ayyasamy Iyer was not a postmaster. He was the person who ran the 'Pandurangan Pallikoodam' in Manalmedu, the village of Kalki. (In the afteryears Kalki reproduced him as the postmaster character in his Vishamandhiram story).
Hi my notes indicate he was called 'thabaal iyer' and taught the village boys in his part time. but let me check up . he was the person who called kalki agasthiyar in reference to his imunitive size. kalki used the same nick name as one of his pen names later.
venketesh
Ayyasamy Iyer observed the smartness of Kalki and teached him both english and Tamil. He introduced him Edwin Arnold's Asia Jyothi, Ramakrishna Paramahamsar and Vivekananda, Meher books. Dharyendranath's Ramayan, and Meds Tylor and Lord Gowranga's books. > Kalki wrote many stories based on the stories in other languages, mostly from Bengali. His first translation work was Mahatma's Sathiya Sothanai in Navasakthi. > Goldsmith and Dickens were the authors who were admired by Kalki and he was having the opinion that nobody can write more hillarious than them. > Kalki's novels were mainly have the styles of Walter Scott and Victor Hugo, which he once accepted. > Anbudan > Vishwak > > > > > > ________________________________
Dear Venkatesh Kalki did not know bengali and other languages. But if learned any good writing in other language he never missed to bring it to Tamil readers in any of his writings. In his editorial troop there was Ra. Veezhinathan who was a scholar in Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, Gujarati and Bengali. He was the State first in Tamilnadu in Hindi Vidwan Exams. He earned a good name by translating Kalki's stories in Hindi. He brought 8 novels and nearly 100 short stories from Hindi to Kalki readers. Kalki very much liked to bring out good stories from other Indian languages in Tamil. The dimensions of tamil writings will increase, he believed.
it was malathi who asked that question. but talking of bengali kalki who had not even read a poem of rabindranath paid a princely sum of 5 rs to see the poet.
I always felt his obsession with tagore led to his unfavorale opinion of barathi.
venketesh > > Dear Venkatesh > Kalki did not know bengali and other languages. But if learned any good writing in other language he never missed to bring it to Tamil readers in any of his writings. In his editorial troop there was Ra. Veezhinathan who was a scholar in Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, Gujarati and Bengali. He was the State first in Tamilnadu in Hindi Vidwan Exams. He earned a good name by translating Kalki's stories in Hindi. He brought 8 novels and nearly 100 short stories from Hindi to Kalki readers. Kalki very much liked to bring out good stories from other Indian languages in Tamil. The dimensions of tamil writings will increase, he believed. > Anbudan > Vishwak > > > > > ________________________________
All of Kalki's villains have a good cause to be bad. I think Kalki tries to bring the fact that no human is fully born evil. I find very less characters who are totally evil as far as I've read Kalki's books.
Infact i have noticed it in the case of positive characters as well. Kalki portrays the fact that no person is 100% good. There will be shades of selfishness, greediness, jealousy or evilness in the good characters also based on certain situations.
Lets take the case of PS Kundhavai : she is mean to nandhini during their younger days. Sundara Chozhar: he illtreats and hurts mandhakini when she comes back to save him.
> All of Kalki's villains have a good cause to be bad. I think Kalki tries to bring the fact that no human is fully born evil. I find very less characters who are totally evil as far as I've read Kalki's books.
Hi Ilavarasi
lovely point. i think we should run a discussion on this.
on whom we feel irritated with in kalki's charecters. even nilakesi in SS we sympathise with at one point.
I just finished re-reading "Sivakamiyin sabadham" after several years.
The bickering scenes between Mamallan and Sivakami really irritated me.. they set me thinking as to whether they really loved each other? Sure, some teasing/taunting is part of the game, but this seems too much. They show a lack of maturity even at later stages when Sivakami is in Vatapi - not even the gravity of the situation got them to act wisely.. They keep suspecting each other's love .. for no reason! Very childish!
Atleast, in Kannabiran and Kamali's case, we know they are pretending to fight but actually are very trusting in each other, but these two : (
In a way, I think it is for good that they didn't marry.. having a bickering relationship with his wife may have jeopardized his quest for greatness.
Wonder why Kalki chose to portray them as a immature couple. Any ideas? Deepa
Hi, I believe Kalki hit the mark when he portrayed them the way he did. They were both pretty young - and both knew that their love was being frowned upon. Mamalla had his father's approval and an entire kingdom and enemies to think of - and he wanted to please one without offending the other.
IMHO, the characterization of Sivakami is a masterpiece. She's a dancer, an artist who's broken grounds in her art, and by virtue of who she is, needs to be loved and cherished. Every artist needs a lot more love than an average person, I guess - they feel the need to be secure, to be reassured a lot that they really are doing the right thing at the right time. And then, she's very young too - without a mother who might have taught her about love and life. She has to feel her way through things, and watching Kamali and Kannabiran lead happy lives right in front of her eyes isn't a very happy notion. Every time she sees someone else happy, she desperately needs to be reassured that she too, will know that kind of happiness. What tough luck, tough - she's had the misfortune to fall in love with a prince who's got a lot on his plate without having to comfort her as well.
Commonsense tells her that she has no right to keep him hanging on her sleeve, but her heart knows that if he doesn't respect and acknowledge their love, no one else will. Kings and princes are known to have the love and respect of their subjects; practically any girl in the kingdom would give her right arm to know that the prince admires her. So who's going to believe an ordinary dancing girl (who, Kalki subtly tells us, came from a certain clan that develops the arts) who says Mamalla has fallen desperately in love with her? More likely, they'll laugh their faces off. She has nothing to hold him with, no leverage, no power - except to believe him when he says he loves her.
Lots of ground for bickering don't you think ?:)
Apologies for running on, but SS is pretty close to my heart.
As for me, I think Kalki should have potrayed such a weak love for Maamallar and Sivagami just for the cause of showing the fact that Maamallar didn't marry Sivagami but married the Pandya princess. We should consider the fact that Sivagami was not a historical character. So naturally they can't be shown to be married. May be Kalki need a reason to break their love to maitain history.
I don't belive Sivakami/Mamallar love is 'weak' they were both victims of circumstances and very headstrong people. It is debatable if they would have been happily married undoubtedly but again it is a myth that one partner always has to be subservient in order for the marriage to work. Narasimha, one must remember was a huge patron of Sivakami's art, so they might have worked very well as a couple. If he was a king who desired a very subservient wife then that would have been different.
But one can never say. Sivakami undoubtedly would not have made a 'housewife' queen. And queens in those days were mostly like that,temple patrons maybe, but not practicing any art or career after marriage. But that is more a question of times than what was going on between her and Narasimha.
I believe the bantering and differences in their case were based on their strong emotions for one another and not at all an indication of weakness.
Pavithra, amen here!! SS is very close to my heart too!! It is funny how what appeals to one person does not appeal to another. I love the 'bickering' between Narasimha and Sivakami, she is an strong willed independant woman and he cannot give her up either. I think Kalki was very progressive to write a couple like this in those days.
but then somehow i got the feeling that while he grew up mentally she didnt. he gets so irritated in the later part
also kamali and the charioteer
isnt she pregnant before the siege? how old is that kid in the last chapters?
venketesh
is 'weak' they were both > victims of circumstances and very headstrong people. It is debatable > if they would have been happily married undoubtedly but again it is a > myth that one partner always has to be subservient in order for the > marriage to work. Narasimha, one must remember was a huge patron of > Sivakami's art, so they might have worked very well as a couple. If > he was a king who desired a very subservient wife then that would > have been different. > > But one can never say. Sivakami undoubtedly would not have made > a 'housewife' queen. And queens in those days were mostly like > that,temple patrons maybe, but not practicing any art or career after > marriage. But that is more a question of times than what was going on > between her and Narasimha. > > I believe the bantering and differences in their case were based on > their strong emotions for one another and not at all an indication of > weakness. > > 2 cents. > > --- In ponniyinselvan@yahoogroups.com, rose illavarasi
Venkat, how long was the siege? Yes Kamali is pregnant before it and Kannan dies in it. The child is described to be two years I think or so when novel ends and Sivakami meets Kamali. The siege was much longer...perhaps Kalki goofed on this one..or is the child older, don't think so.
I think Sivakami does grow up in her own way. She becomes more of an anti war person than seekign revenge which confuses and irritates him. He thinks it is his duty to protect/save her and gets too attached to that idea while she is thinking otherwise - two strong willed people, not childish people I think.
Hi, I think its mentioned in the last paagam that Kamali's son is 12 - Sivakami is amazed to see him so grown up. So no, I don't think Kalki goofed up. :) I remember seeing the illustration of a young boy running inside the house and Sivakami's look of amazement. Mamallar's confusion seems to be that of every man's, when confronted with a woman - he goes expecting (like Malathi mentioned, I think), a pathini Queen's mentality and only later realizes that this is a different ball-game altogether. Also, Sivakami's been away for too long - in a sense, she's caught in a time warp, expecting things to remain unchanged if and when she gets back. Mamalla has had time to acclimatize, she hasn't had any. Things have changed, but her fragile ego won't let her admit it, even if commonsense forces her to.
In many ways, she's an anomaly - too much of a woman not to want love and a family, yet too much of an artist to live an ordinary life. King Mahendra might have had one or two selfish reasons in wanting her to become a bikshuni - but maybe he really wasn't far off the mark when he said it.
Pavithra, very well put!! Couldn't describe Sivakami better!
Glad to hear there was no goof up with chinna kannan, indeed I believe SS had least amount of loose ends/ goof ups amongst Kalki's work. We did not talk about Kalki's intentions for Sivakami/Mamallar as indicated in Parthiban Kanavu. Kalki never intended them to be married. He thought of their relationship beyond SS also - it appears like he imagined Mamallar revisitng Sivakami after Vanamadevi's demise (perhaps allowing room for the practice then that temple dancers often were king's women too). Kundavi his daughter is raised by Sivakami, there is lot of gossip in palace on their relationship. Then Sivakami dies leaving the old athai as the only survivor of the saga. Am thinking how deep he thought about the story - would make for a lovely sequel woudn't it? Perhaps our Venkat would consider :))