I was Just watching Koffee with Anu on Vijay TV - 2 very good singers Deepan Chakravarthi and Manicka Vinayagam.
Manicka Vinayagam was talking about his lineage. He mentioned that his ancestor had taught dance to RRC's daughter Kundavai and RRC had honoured them with land etc during Kundavai's arangetram and it is there in inscriptions. It was really nice to listen to it. I was transported back in time and almost instantly visualized a setting such as that.
As I thought about it, I realized that it was quite a link, that I was watching some one who was actually connected with RRC, his family and the era, a straight lineage of 1000+ years.
> Mancka Vinayagam can trace his lineage back 1000years?nice.
very nice indeed.
not even the royal families of tamilnadu are able to trace their liniage so much back but its nice to find your roots. i know the feling. last week there was an article on baskara sethupathy in hindu by s. muthiah http://www.thehindu.com/mp/2008/11/17/stories/2008111751020500.htm
in that he mentions that a financier family had the titles to the kingdom of ramnad for the loans he had taken. the family was mine. rudner and west describe it more in their book, but muthiah just says the family took over the kindom as settlement.
its a moral issue to be debated whether a kingdom can be pledged but then i am only talking about the issue of tracing one's roots.
> ancestor had taught dance to RRC's daughter Kundavai and RRC had > honoured them with land etc during Kundavai's arangetram and it is > there in inscriptions.
Roughly 60000 inscriptions have been published by state and central bodies so far - and none of them talk about this interesting incident, to the best of my knowledge.
Silappadhikaram talks about Madhavi's arangetram in a very compelling manner. The descriptions are simply superb.
> > Manicka Vinayagam was talking about his lineage. He mentioned that his > ancestor had taught dance to RRC's daughter Kundavai and RRC had honoured > them with land etc during Kundavai's arangetram and it is there in > inscriptions. It was really nice to listen to it.
Hi Sandeep
I did some searching around. below for your info:
called nivendakkarar). In the long list there are 6 dance masters ( they got two shares each) - they are called nattuvanceya nattuvan. one of them is called 'mummudi solanrittamarayan' - great king of the dancers of mummudi cholan
There are also two officials who where supervisors of temple women and female musicians ( ghandarvi).the insc reads 'tali chcheeripendugalukkum ghandarvigallukkum nayakkan seyya.
Just to mention, there were also
Tirupadiyam vinnappam seyvar:
48 persons ( pidarar) appointed to recite the thevaram hymns and two persons who accompanied them on the drums. they recd a daily allowance (nibandha) of 3 kuruni paddy each measured by adavallan.
Ariyam singers - singers in sankrit who recd 150 kalams of paddy each year.
( all above from the book - Royal Temple of Rajaraja by Geeta Vasudevan - a phd thesis that has come out as a book)
Well, if some one has access to Manicka Vinayagam, it might be worth discussing it with him. The other thing is his father is (or was) a very reputed dancer and dance teacher who has taught dance to many famous dancers like Padmini etc.
I say 'it might be worth discussing with him' because if he had said it on TV, he might be having some facts and it might be worth authenticating such links. He seemed like a nice bloke who sure has a tremendous voice no doubt.
Is there anything to indicate that women were restrained from certain activities those days? Were there restrictions on women of royal families from doing certain things?
I am asking this more out of factual ignorance. The impression I got from Kalki's books + certain other bits & accounts of westerners who had accounted the social life of those times, is that women were generally free and were not socially oppressed (as they were later on). I also felt that they were more secure then. A character like Poonkuyali travels freely where ever she pleases and women generally seem to have had a say on a lot of matters.
Look forward to your knowledge (and others too) on this.
Sandeep, am no history expert but based on Kalki's writing and very generic information - there were LOT of restrictions royal family people had, both men and women. Since we are talking about women - royal women generally were not allowed to engage in arts or any other active profession, they sponsored art and artisans which is a different story altogether but being an active singer/dancer, no - remember Mahendra Pallava's extensive justification on his son not marrying Sivakami as her art would then be lost to the world?
Royal women were expected to be accepting of their husbands having multiple wives/concubines (unlike the Mahabharat where it goes both ways!) and Sati was glorified also - even Kundavi presents Sati committed by her ancestors as a great reason while declaring her love for VD? RRJ's mother herself historically committed Sati while nursing an infant.
To me all this really does not add up to any great freedom. There were great women like Sembian Madhevi who used their influence, money to further religious causes. But the average royal woman still had to abide by all these rules. Kalki himself was a very odd mix of conservatism and progressiveness - Kalyani, Poonguzhali and Savitri on one hand with Vanavan madhevi, Vaanadhi and other husband worshipping women on the other.
It would be interesting to know really though if this singer's ancestor taught dance to Kundavi or was a dance teacher sponsored /supported by Kundavi, am guessing the latter sounds lot more believable.
Venkat, I agree 100% on all that you say. I don't know this singer very much so do not want to take off on him. If someone I don't know said this I would think without hesitation that he is making up something to show off. Kundavi dancing and having someone teach her, really probably he was inspired by Vyjayanthi mala playing Kundavi, not the real one :)))
It is 100% true that Rukmini Arundale made Bharatham acceptable to masses and conservative middle classes. I am reminded of the oft repeated Thillana Mohanambal dialogue likening sathirattam to the world's oldest profession, that was how it really was.
Queen of RRC, next to his Crown Queen Olagamadevi...
In fact, ONE SHOULD GO INTO THE DETAILS the PAINTINGS in the BIG TEMPLE ..
to look into the Rows in which the Royalty is sitting and analyse..
to look at the details of crowd , their clothings .. etc..
We can understand a lot from these paintings... which will lead us to think, atleast in Chozha Kingdom, WOMEN enjoyed lot of respect, possible equality and mixing of commons freely.
[Since we are talking about women - royal women generally were not allowed to engage in arts or any other active profession, they sponsored art and artisans which is a different story altogether but being an active singer/dancer, no - remember Mahendra Pallava's extensive justification on his son not marrying Sivakami as her art would then be lost to the world?]
Wouldnt that be more of a 20th century view than a factual 10th century evidence? I mean I was wondering if there was any factual account of the status enjoyed by common women of that period or before. Besides like you said, royal family people, both men and women, have always had restrictions.The old vedic dharma certainly had a more equality than the post mugal period. Some one wanting to commit sati for what ever reason is different from someone being forced to commit - not that I am or would like to justify either.
[It would be interesting to know really though if this singer's ancestor taught dance to Kundavi or was a dance teacher sponsored /supported by Kundavi, am guessing the latter sounds lot more believable.]
He definitely told that there is an inscription to this effect. I wonder if there is a repeat of that program or if there is any other way to watch it. Couldnt find it on youtube.
SPs, very good to know, thank you!! Are there any references to
a. Royal family members learning dance/music or any other art form, am sure they would have considered that worthy of recording.
b. Dance being not practiced as a profession among elite people really did not mean it was not respected, it very much was just that people who are professionals were not considered 'family type'. From what I know the dancers who were dedicated to God/profession (a'ala Sivakami towards end of novel) were supposedly also the king's concubines. Am not sure about Chola kings specifically but Krishnadevaraya one of the great art patrons did have a lot of dancers among his women.
> > He definitely told that there is an inscription to this effect. I wonder if > there is a repeat of that program or if there is any other way to watch it.
Hi the period of 1314 to 1360 were the dark ages in tamilnadu. what part of tamilnadu wasnt ruled by the sultanate was a lawless wasteland. i guess nearly a fourth of the tamil population was enslaved, died of disease or famine or migrated. the vijayanagar repopulated tamilnadu and thats the reason of high telugu populations. then the poligar carnatic wars. all this is like putting your demography into a high speed mixer. it is almost impossible for a family to trace its history over this period. i like that man's voice but then he is either bluffing or if he beleives it i am sorry for him.
Sati is a crime regardless of whether there is 'consent' or not. (No woman in her right mind would consent to burning alive, it is not like a choice she makes to wear a white sari).
donations and sponsoring various arts, temple donations etc. When we talk of status and equality specifically we have to look at certain issues - were women allowed to rule officially, are the same or similar rules of marriage and family applicable to both men and women, can a common person be accepted into a royal family and so on. These questions are common across times and generations and signify status of women (and men too).
Very well said, SPS sir; we are now conditioned to look at everything with western eyes and western interpretations. We must go back to the original sources, original literature - both religious and secular (not translations which can be biased), to get the real picture.
Just fyi, I received a somewhat hurt, angry response to this personally, from an elderly member - accusing me of not respecting 'karpukkarasis' and those who had consented to voluntary suicide by fire with their spouses. I put it down to generation gap, and all respects to the elderly member but this is really not an issue of debate in modern times, it is much beyond that.
I just came back from Seattle attending a technical conference with Microsoft. I am part of expanding a technical community related to MS Software and offered to do that in India. I was asked by a group of white people if a woman in leadership roles would be acceptable in India. This is 21st century and I was surprised and very saddened by the question. I told them that there are more women statistically in technology in India than in US and several are in very senior positoins including CIOs. But looking at such emails I feel they had a point. Yes we are not even progressed enough to condemn sati unequivocally, are we? What has sati has to do with virtue by the way? It takes more courage to live than to die and if it was indeed in the cause of love, how is it that no man died in the cause of his love/wife? Or as the great Mahakavi said 'karpai podhuvil vaippom'?
I really did not mean to sidetrack the thread but I just felt very sad and compelled to write. Sincere apologies.
I share your horor. I dont think a woman needs to prove anything to anyone. The concept of Karpukkarasis is ridiculous. Its just a social creation. The law of karma doesnt work on social norms. The thoughts of any man or woman will have its cause and effect, thats all. One does not need to be bound by anything else.
Just to clarify on what I had told earlier, I was trying to make the point that there was perhaps no one forcing anyone to commit sati in our society of that time, as a social norm, as opposed to what happened in later periods, specially in north India.
About the equality that I had talked earlier, my thoughts were-if you look at our Gods and dieties, there are a number of Godessess in our vedic tradition than in any other tradition around the world. The concept of Shiva and Shakthi and the acceptance and worship of so many Goddesses could only happened in a society and time when women had a prominent or equal role.
Thanks Sandeep and SPS. It is gratifying to note your stances and encouraging to work better twords equality with respect and keeping our healthy respect for tradition and glories of the past.
Managed to watch the program just now on vijay tv ( thought they skipped a week not two between broadcasting in india n here in sin)
What he said was....his family has a 1000 year heritage of dance, having taught dance to kundavai. He went on to add that kundavai's arangetram happened with rrc in attendance n the teacher ' nattuavanaar' were given many villages ( hmm) as grants. Also that evidence for this is there in the big temple inscriptions ..
> What he said was....his family has a 1000 year heritage of dance, having taught dance to kundavai. He went on to add that kundavai's arangetram happened with rrc in attendance n the teacher ' nattuavanaar' were given many villages ( hmm) as grants. Also that evidence for this is there in the big temple inscriptions .. > > Vj > hi check this site -
am amazed that in just under 100 years - the branches. with todays tech atleast this is possible. without such tracing back 1000 years ....well well well
Yes I agree, we have a family tree too tracing back 200 years, one of my relatives did lot of research on that. We still debate that parts of it are assumptions though. 1000 years..this man is definitely spinning some reels :))
I have a family tree chart, where I can trace up about 8 nodes - equivalent to 8 generations. I am not sure about the authenticity, but chanced upon the chart that my grandfather had.
Going back to 10th century is so interesting. I can hardly imagine the excitement. I bet the lineage would be through the word of mouth.