His effigies are burnt across the country on Dussehra to mark victory of good over evil, but the demon king Ravana is revered by villagers
of Pukhranya in Kanpur who worship him as a hero and bring out a procession carrying his idol.
"Ravana was a brave, intelligent and a good king of Dravidian Gaud tribe and we consider him as our ancestor. We hold a fair on this day so that the next generation would remember his sacrifice and continue the tradition," said Dhanirao Boddh, Indian Dalit Panther's President and one of the organisers of the annual festival on Dussehra.
In fact, the outfit questions the practice of burning effigies which, it said, causes environmental pollution.
"Nobody takes permission to burn Ravana's effigies either from Pollution Control Board or from the administration," said another member of the outfit, Genda Prasad Gaud.
"Law does not permit effigy burning. Then why do they burn Ravana's effigy to hurt our sentiments," he said, demanding an immediate ban on the practice.
Apart from Ravana's idol, the villagers of Pukhranya bring out a procession with idols of Meghnath, Kumbhkaran, Sambhuk, Gautam Budh, Ambedkar, King Ashok, Periyar and other dalit leaders.
Boddh claimed that a a Bodh Deksha ceremony will be organised where Hindus will adopt Buddhism.
Dear Vairam, very balanced and well researched, thank you and congratulations !!
My only two cents on the second part - the dravidian/modern stance on making a hero out of Ravana is based on my enemy's enemy (ie Ravana is enemy of Brahmin hero Rama) is my friend and not on authentic understanding of the epic. All epic based vilains be it Ravana or Duryodhana or Surapadma are people of great intelligence and achievement who are egoistic to their own destruction. It is to the credit of our culture that we do not believe in satanic style evil but as all evil as created by excessive ego that attains liberation through surrender.
What do all these people who convert to Buddhism really know about Buddhism? They are doing it to spite the bias and prejudice in their own faith as Hindus. A more appropriate stance perhaps would be to fight the bias and prejudice instead of the faith itself.
===========Quote============ What do all these people who convert to Buddhism really know about Buddhism? They are doing it to spite the bias and prejudice in their own faith as Hindus. A more appropriate stance perhaps would be to fight the bias and prejudice instead of the faith itself. ==========Unquote===========
Very Well Said Malathi. This is what I have been shouting in various other forums. Those who do not have the courage to fightwithin, are those who run away from the faith, only to yell back at the original one, calling names. These are the worst cowards. Needlessto say that our Politicians today are the standing examples of this Spineless Cowardice. Of course, they have other ulterior motives too.
And do we haveanyone who fought the bias from within the faith itself. Yes a whole lot. Starting fromAdhiSankarar to Ramanuja to, until recentlyRajaji and UV Swaminatha Iyer et all.There are also many lesser known persons, whohave fought a lot from within and I bet noneof you will know even such persons existed. These are the commonhuman beings we see day today, who are silent revolutionaries.
===========Quote============ > What do all these people who convert to Buddhism really know about > Buddhism? They are doing it to spite the bias and prejudice in their > own faith as Hindus. A more appropriate stance perhaps would be to > fight the bias and prejudice instead of the faith itself. > ==========Unquote===========
Unfortunately I dont know the psych of the people and It will be highly offensive on my part if I comment whether they are right or wrong without knowing their situations.The country still has oppressors like Bajrang Dal and Hindu Munani activist causing communal and social tensions. I just posted the article to show the wide spread belief of Ravana as Dravidian king was amazed to know the belief even exists in northern part of India.
> My only two cents on the second part - the dravidian/modern stance on > making a hero out of Ravana is based on my enemy's enemy (ie Ravana > is enemy of Brahmin hero Rama) is my friend and not on authentic > understanding of the epic. Malathi on this, I think you have got the origin of the Theory wrong. I got interesting perspectives from two books namely 'Ravana the great king of Lanka' by M.S.Purnalingam Pillai and 'Brahmin and Non brahmin' by M.S.S.Pandian. Unlike common belief that Ravana the dravidian king theory originated during the Dravidian movement, this theory was actually was made popular by the Tamil Shaivites. Ravana being an ardent Shiva Bhaktha was one of the major reasons for this theory. VJ has given the link for Ravana the great book in this forum. Reading the book would give good insight into this topic.
Iam surprised that you sayEVR chose to fight, instead of gettingconverted. Okay, he did not get converted to another religion, but he could not stay withinthe faith and fight. He did become an atheist, to fight, which was not warranted. On the other hand, the examples of Adhi Sankara, Ramanuja, Rajaji and UVS Iyer, all were"practising"Hindus, who very muchbelieved in God and fought with authority, over the misrepresentation of the scriptures.
In fact, whilesome of EVR's argument wereveryvalid regarding the irrationaland illogicalmethods being followed, Ithink that he did not understand the true scripturesor tenets of Hinduism, before deciding to take onit. On the other hand, all those four above andthoseunsung heroes, understoodthescriptures than EVR and that is what made them fight while still remaining within the faith.
So IMHO, the only credit that we cangive to EVR is that, he did not get converted into another religion. But his argument that one should become an atheist to condemn some practices doesn't gel with true rationalism.
And if one says that Atheism is also accepted by Hinduism, well, then what was the necessity to garland the idols of Rama or Pillayar withchappals?If EVR's grudge was against the discriminating Brahmins, what was necessity to renounce Gods? After all, Brahmins are notGods. It is just funny to see that, in process totaking on thediscriminating Brahmins, heand other fellow atheists have taken upon the God and it is more funny to see that, afterall, they cannot sustain the take.
So, personally, I cannot accept EVR in the league of those who fought for thesocial upliftment, while remaining within the faith.
Venkatesh, Even Rajaji supported Varana dharma and also introduced the very very un popular vocational training based on their varanas. He also didnt oppose the different treatment(different food system in school for Brahmin children and non Brahmin children). So every leader has +ves and -ves. So arguing that Rajaji can be included and EVR cannot be included is not a right argument here. Both Rajaji and EVR were great leaders and tried to uplift the society as much as possible. The ways which they followed were different but still the motive should be appreciated. I hope we don't argue more on who should be included and who shouldn't be.
Caveat: Thisis just a discussion andno offense of anysort meant.
===========Quote============ The country still has oppressors like Bajrang Dal and Hindu Munani activist causing communal and social tensions. ==========Unquote===========
On the above, would it be appropriate to call them Oppressors. Please note that I am nottheirSupporter as well.Since you talk about the situations which would have caused some to turn toBuddhism,thesame"situation" lies here.Hope everyone knows clearly regarding what is happening to the Hindus over the periodright from the days of Islamin invasion, till date. We can segregate thisinto 3 types
1.Marauding Islamic Invaders - Who killed a lot ofHindus and theHindus were helpless here 2. TheOppressing English - Ethnic cleansing mydemoralising. 3. TheMissionaries - Who convertby false propagandaand deception. They do it as a business.
Ofall the above, the 3rd is the worst. Thesuccessive governments, baring aBJP, have supported these missonaries silently. The media is all controlled bypeople who support these missionaries.Remember, while there was a hue and cry regarding the riots in Karnataka in almost all the media, did any one "known" media house present the reasons behind it, whereit all started with the missionaries, giving out pamphlets which was clearly denigrating the Hindus andtheir Gods? And recently if you have read Thuglak, there was a report ofa similar thing that happened in Coimbatore. But theobjection was very dignified and no untoward incidents there. But when the Hindus wentdown to the Police Station to register a complaint, the police refused to take the complaint, but didso, only when they were threatenedwith a Bandh and Agitation.
So who is forcing all these Bajrang Dals or Hindu Munnanis?Those power-craving politicians who, inthe process of Minority Appeasement to garner theirvotes, turn a blind eye on all theseactivities. Okay,it would have been better, if the governmentand media remained silenton all that is happening.But when some Hinduorganisations come out in support of the oppressed Hindus, then they are termed as "Hindutva Mobs"while,encouraging theother religions' terrorists and deceivingmissionaries.
While I do not agree, definitely, with the violent ways of BajrangDal,Ido want to bring to everyone's kind attention, theutmost biased handling of the Hindus' sentiments of theGovernment and Media Houses.
While we immediately see a "Breaking News" on aTimes Now channel or NDTV when a Muslim or Christian is attacked, why dont weever seethesame Breaking News when the Hindus are attacked? For Example,see the link below and tell me which TV channel, telecastedthe news about this happening. http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/5585.html
And surprisingly while a Jihadist reaction by an Islamic terrorist or a denigrating campaign of Hindu Gods by the Christian Missonaries is viewed upon "sympathetically" by theGovernment and theMedia Houses, ascribing the reasons toalways the Hindus, the same sympathy is not shown by these two entities on the Hindus, for all theoppressions that theyare being subjected to.
Let me clarify. Rajaji is said to have created the vocational based teaching system.He too had faultered here and there. But remember, but for Rajajiand UVSIyer, the temple entry forall the oppressedwouldnot have happened then. Fine that it could have happened now.But I am talking about the initiatives taken by them.
And more importantly, I did not say that EVR did not fight for the social cause. Ionly say that he could not do it while remaining within the faith. Asall of us know, his parentsand ancestors were all ardent believers of God. So being born into afamily of ardent believers, it is just his inability(yes, I would termit as his inability) to fight for the social cause while still remaining a believer. There can be thousands ofreasons given, toexplain, why he chose to become an atheist. But the final fact is that he didnot haveeither the knowledge of the true scriptures or the courage to fight from within.
I ameven fine with the fact that hebecame an atheist. But my upfront question was why togarland the idols with chappals, just to exhibit his atheistic inclinations.And is this act, not similar to whata Bajrang Dal is doing tothe churches today. When a Bajrang Dal doesthis, it is "communal", but if EVR does it, it is Rationalisation and Social Upliftment.
This is what is called as "Oru Kannula Vennai, Oru Kannula Sunnambu".(Pleasedo not mistake me. I am not directing this towardsyou, but the same government and the media houses that I decried in my previous post)
Hope you now see the reason, why EVR cannot be included in the league of those who fought forsocial upliftment while remaining within the fight.And remember, to comeout of the faith and fight against it is a very easy, butthink of the revolts that an Adhi Sankarar or Ramanuja would havehad to face whilefighting for the cause, still remaining a practising Hindu and a Brahmin in particular.Needless tosay that this extends to everyone whofought or, is fighting for the cause ofsocialequality while remaining within the faith.
Why did not the works of AzhwarsorNayanmars,impress EVR. Afterall they have all decried any social injustice by way of discrimination. They have outpoured many a songs in whichthey mixed no words in saying that God does not discriminate, while going to theextent of criticizing the Brahmins who actually discriminate in thename of God. I can atleast give references from Azhwars for this, whileothers can given ample references from theNayanmarstoo.
Simplyput, I still say that EVR neither had the knowledgenor the guts as that of the Azhwars and Nayanmars oran AdhiSankarar or Ramanuja to take on the societywhile remaining with in the faith.
This is not the forum for the issue vairam has raised. There are other places where this can be passionately discussed. It is better to close this topic before it gets hot!
Religion is personal right. Every person has right to convert to any religion he wants(provided he is not forced and misguided). I don't agree calling oneself a Hindu,Muslim or Christian just bcos one was born to Hindu,Muslim or Christian parent. Religion is something u got to believe. If some one feels he is more attracted to any other faith he has every right to do it. Thats our constitution- Secular. So it is duty of the government to take care the religious conversion dosen't take place by force or for material benefits. At the same time we as citizens should respect its individual right of any person to preach and try to spread his religion and at the same time, the right of person to convert to another faith. But the catch is, it should be within some limits. I dont like Christians coming into temple or temple region(Tirupati example) to propagate their faith or a activist like bajrang dal who resort to communal violence(to the level of killing people and raping nun in public) to reconvert people of other faith to Hinduism.
What about Guathama Bhudda, one of the greatest human beings ever born in this world. When he had problem with the society around , he went on a journey and he found a religion. It doesnt always mean a person has to fight within his faith. Its a personal choice!
Though at personal level I dont believe in conversion, I dont want to indulge in critizising people who convert for it is a individual right to change faith and I respect that right.
Isee your point. Even I am not against anyone who is converting to anotherreligion. I amonly questioning thesemethods used in the propaganda.In fact I believe in one Supreme God who is the Master of the Entire Universe. CallHim, Vishnu or Siva or the Godsaid by Jesusor Prophet, they are all one and the same. And do you know whosaid this. The Azhwars (and Nayanmars too but I dont have the reference of the songs).
I have quoted this before. Butam happy to quote it again.
and more. These are just examples. And I have also stated elsewhere in our same forum, how, Logically and Rationally the Supreme God as seen by one is the same, though there may be different name to the religions ascribed today.
Having said this, why should..... 1. Some one garland the idols with chappal 2. Some one do false propaganda denigrating the God of a particular religion
The 2nd one is what is being done by the Missionaries, with the help of the Government and the Media houses, which is what I denounce.
Hope I clarified. My sincere apologies, if my words have hurt you. I only talk about the issue and not the individual.
Vairam, I agree on both points that you have mentioned, that both EVR/Rajaji are leaders in their own right. Also on the right to freedom of religion being a fundamental choice.
I am not a supporter of Varana Dharma, but do you know more than 10,000 indigenous arts and crafts died because nobody learnt them, in TN alone that is? It is not right to oppose anything blindly. It makes no sense to argue that EVR fought 'within' or 'without' boundaries of his own faith as he professed not to have any faith. In fact Gandhi's own disagreement with EVR was this 'eye for an eye' approach that refuses to see/acknowledge what is positive on the other side.
Yes freedom of faith is a fundamental right but to exercise it with knowledge and responsibility is not something most people know how to do. The Buddha followed his personal spiritual path, a'la Ramana Mahirishi or Ramakrishna, he did not convert religions nor did he profess hate or dislike of anybody else's faith.
I will surely read those books on Ravana when I find time, love to aly my hands on anything related to the Ramayana if I can!! Also recommended is Paula Richman's Many Ramayanas (available on Amazon).
by the way do you know who the mythological charecter sulochana is? she happens to be the wife of indrajit. there seem to be so many stories in our epics about her. i think the first kannada film ever was on her. quite a few tamil movies too.
ravana and family seem to have their own set of stories too. i remember a discussion in our group on how the uthirakosamangai temple was first built by mandothari.
sita initiated rameshwaram and mandothari is connected with a neighbouring temple.
with due respect to Periyar and his social reformation
atheism is fine but dont thrust it on somebody. but ironically wherever there is a big temple there is a periyar statue facing it or near it. god kept him close i guess. its not only india. there was this american atheist association fearing which a part of the bible was not read on the moon by the initial astronauts. nasa was afraid of being sued.
this association is responsible for stopping of prayyers in may states of the usa.
nice article in wikipedia a few days before. venketesh
Venkat, am leaving tomorrow, Chicago/London/Bangalore monday morning. Next week this time (friday) i will be in chennai, just one day trip otherwise would have very much liked to meet with PS group. My cousin has promised kapali temple so I will pick up your books at Giri if I can.
Sulochana is Indrajit's wife, she is a Naga kanya or daughter of Adisesha/Lakshmana. Lakshmana is actually Ravana's son's father in law! It is fascinating to hear of temples built by Mandodhari, really I had no idea about that! Is there any more information on her?
Vairam, I had no idea, what was the case about? I thought her book was well researched and balanced. BTW it even included Periyar's abusive essays on the Ramayana.
I just noticed that someone said 10000 arts & crafts perished in tamilnadu. Can we list at least some 100? 10000 seems to be exaggerated number to me. Also, talking of periyar and eradication of untouchability, I think we can safely include Sri Narayana guru for his involvement in the vaikom satyagraha and temple entry movement.
Wikipedia's link on vaikom satyagraha is a recommended read on the kind of brutalities unleashed in the name of keeping up the caste.
eradication of untouchability, I think we can safely include Sri Narayana guru for his involvement in the vaikom satyagraha and temple entry movement.
with due respect to all the social reformers i think we need to take in the arising of technology too as a prime mover for social change. i beleive the invention of the engine as a source of mechanical power removed slavery by rendering it totally inefficent and commercially unviable. remember the roman galleys. one engine would have replaced a few hundred rowing slaves. similarly urbanisation is one major reason that we need to take into account for removal of untouchability. the caste system is liteally breaking down before our eyes in towns.
venketesh
> > Wikipedia's link on vaikom satyagraha is a recommended read on the kind of brutalities unleashed in the name of keeping up the caste. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaikom_Satyagraha > > Regards > Nanda > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
Its purely political to bring Ravana and others to worship... How come a person who kidnaps others wife be hero...
This is purely political... as in our case political people sometimes stand up and agitate to change a name of the entertaining movie... and make loud noises!
It is really sad that the two main activities - manual scavenging and processing/skinning of dead animals (especially cows) which led to untouchability are still prevalent. Many cities have dry latrines which have to be cleaned manually; railways is one organisation which has done nothing to do away with this practice. Sampath
It is fascinating to know that Indrajit was Lakshmana's son-in-law... Is it really in Kamba Ramayanam or Valmiki Ramyanam..?
If Lakshmana was totally with Rama for the whole 14years in the forest... then how come Sulochona getting born and also getting married to Rama-Lakshmana's enemies son...? Pieces of puzzle are really a puzzling one here!