VJ, I think early Pandya is excellent, too -- witness Kalugumalai, Nataraja frieze in Thirupparankundram, & loose murthis such as this charming Ishvari Matrka. Her proportions are kind of clutzy, but she's so sweet. Kathie
Malathy, For your kind information. For a mammootty starer Malayalam movie in 1989, IR took just Rs.10k. And there have been movies which he did free of cost. People do not know this because he doesnt publicise all these. So your point on IR was behind money is not valid
Udanx, Lots of celebrties do unknown charities.I didnt' say he was a miser of any sort. The point is there is a direct proportion connection to the # of movies he made and the amount of money he made. Is there or is there not? So you can't say he made x movies (and therefore so many ragas, tunes this that) versus someone else who did less. It is a big factor, along with others also, ok he was more creative etc. But not like he did alll of that to use his creativity alone eh?
Malathi, This is the blog of my friend Rajendra who is also a die hard fan of IR and has analyzed the Ragas used by Raja. Hope this helps not only you but also others.
Thank you Udanx, I wil definitely use his blog to complete my exercise and also listen to songs that I have not. If you can possibly update your spreadsheet with links from musicindiaonline or youtube that would help a lot!
I will send the spreadsheet out next week, it is lot more time consuming that I thought. I have done a few experiments in this regard.
1 Try to find baselines for ragas - meaning songs that can help you identify other songs as belonging to the same raga. MSS's Giridhara Gopala for Mohanam, PUChinnappa's incredible Chandrodayam Inile for Shankarabharanam , MKT's manmadha lelayai for Charukesi. They have NEVER failed me. The wholesomeness of music direction comes from this.
2 Turn off the vocals completely on a movie, including songs. Just listen to music and let it tell you the story. I don't know how to do this technically but I have friends who do and hugely enjoyed the output on some great movies - Lavakusa(KVM/Ghantasala), MayaBazar (Rajeswara Rao/Ghantasala),Mughal E Azam and Baiju Bawra(the great Naushad) Karnan (MSV),Shankarabharanam (KVM) and Muthyala Muggu (IR). (I refuse to try SindhuBhairavi since am unable to close my mind to the MCP nature of the story). But try this if you can. It is a true tribute to the music director.
Please let us not close our ears and eyes to the multitude of talent out there and enjoy *all* of it.
Yes definitely, I like many of ARR's songs too. The issue I have with is this overt hero worship of Ilayaraja by many that has overshadowed almost every other music director's contributions. Actually SPB himself talks of this in Coffee with Anu, where he says Gangai Amaran and several others were never recognized for their talent.
Educated people do not engage in hero worship. We recognize and respect talent in everyone and realize that it takes a variety of talent and a variety of people who have them.
Dear Malathi, Oh? I have several heroes, and think I'm fairly well educated. There can still be romanticism for the great heroes of all ages. I guess it's rather childish, but can move some of us on a very deep level. Those who died fighting tyranny, and other forms of injustice. Know what I mean? Kathie
Kathie, of course we all have people who are our heroes and favorites, I didn't mean that way. Our minds and hearts regardless have to be open to the fact that there is never really 'one' person who is above all, in anything.
And people who make great sacrifices like Gandhi for example deserve a certain godly status perhaps, in my opinion atleast. People who have talent and use it to earn money are definitely not the same, not that there is anything bad about doing that but everyone has talent and everyone makes money only different degrees that is all.
The mass populace in many ways in India is slave to hero worship - of movie stars, sports stars, politicians everyone, a certain blind adulation that closes thinking and makes enemies out of others with different tastes and ruins opportunites and recognition for others. I meant that is not good that is all.
Dear Malathi, This is probably a very stupid question, but as a westerner raised as a Protestant Christian, with a very simple severe code of faith: no images, only Jesus & God to be revered: since you're very articulate, can you describe to me the wonder and joy you felt as a child when taken to a temple? If that's what you felt? What did Sanatana Dharma feel like to you, growing up ? I'm fascinated with the way other people see the world and how they feel they must act in it.
Congregational & Presbyterian Christianity is very simple, no frills, no images, just a cross on a table in front, good organ music and quite a bit of congregational singing, no images. [ I think we're starved for images] Only a few prayers chanted together: but it expects good behavior & no pride ! -- PRIDE's considered one of the greatest sins. Northern Europe is dark a lot of the year, which I think creates a dark outlook, yet people descended from there love myths, rituals, stories of all kinds, told in the black nights. Of course you know that Indo-European languages connect us from Oriya to Welsh.
I was thrilled when I learned that the God of Fire in India, was AGNI, which means FIRE in Latin. And that he rides a ram - - - Agnus is the name for lamb, in Latin. Christ is Agnus Dei, Lamb of God. -- it's all related. Wow, you talk of rambling ? Hope you don't mind. Please tell me of the pleasures of Sanatana Dharma.
Dear Kathie, no problem with rambling at all, from my side:) And especially on the joys of ritual and celebration and all those things which I grew up with. Just not sure where to begin. As you probably know there is no shortages of images/myths/rituals in hindu religion so much so that one forgets what is real and what is symbolic and they are blended together almost everywhere. What I remember fondly is the general sense of compassion that we were taught as children so naturally. Compassion and Kindness towards everyone and everything, including plants, animals, nature...My grandmother used to say even to murmur a prayer of apology towards a plant while plucking its flower. And flowers offered to God were never to be thrown in garbage, only buried in earth. If you step on paper it was considered equivalent to stepping on Saraswati so you tried to avoid it. Innumerable things like that.
Taking care of elders is a huge part of our dharma, I grew up in an extended family with seven elders and fond memories are about being passed around from one crinkled hand to another. We didn't have much of material wealth but we had lots and lots of love and the elders made sure there was atleast one family reunion wiht all cousins (upto 4 levels). All that is sadly a rarity in the India of today - many kids dont' even know one level of cousins let alone 4. Taking care of elders and ensuring their safe passage into another world is considered an important rite of passage and completion of cycle of life, what I find to be a huge gap in western culture, particularly american culture.
Another concept is Atidhi Devo Bhava or treating guests as God. Anyone who visits is treated with love, respect, courtesy - nobody is ever turned down even if the family has humble means, lots of my cousins still recall with gratitude the experience of generosity with which my grandmother treated them, only rice with buttermilk and pickle for dinner but everyone gets atleast a little with lots of love.
I have learnt lots of good things in this country but I learnt to treat these values as even more sacred after I saw how much they were missing here. One often times does not learn the value of things if they are not taught or ingrained indigenously into the culture and what our culture taught was some of these. Hope I have not bored you and salute your open mindedness and generosity of spirit!!
Well, this may be the last mail from my side w.r.t this thread.
1. I am surprised that you people discuss ARR in the same league? Well there is a good gap between being Bbrilliant / Shrewed and a Genius. ARR no doubt is a brilliant / street smart guy. But don't say that he is brilliant. His knowledge in music is no where near the people whom we discussed earlier. I know I will be in the bad books of many people who love ARR. 2. I had given you the link for blog where my friend Rajendran use to write about ilayaraja and only about ilayaraja. Do spare time to read that blog and get to know what is Raja's contribution to film music visa viz others. Once you are done with that fully and ready for an argument / discussion I will surface that time. Till then ... Good Luck!
Udanx, everyone deserves a right to their opinion. This is exactly what I talked about what hero worship does is leading to self righteousness. If IRR wanted to be purely classical genius he should not have chosen film music as his centre, if he does film music there will be comparison to ARR and MSV and everyone you imagine who makes film music.
I can read any blog discussing ragas and music objectively, go to tfmmusic.com and there is lot of discussion like that. I refuse to read blogs by hero worshippers regardless of what it may be, since it is overwhelmingly for and about one person and is not considering what others have done in true spirit and regard.(The last link you sent said on front page that no comparisons with other directors and I left the page right away.)
I have tried to see your point of view, I am sorry to see that you refuse to acknowledge or see mine or any others.I don't love ARR or for that matter MSV or anyone, just like good songs.ARR may not be creative genius but has made a huge difference by popularizing tamil film music world over. Even abroad people know indian film music as related to Rehman. IRR's creative genius does not and should not preclude what others have done and it is very narrow minded/judgemental to think so.
Udanx; You really had me laughing there. Your hero worship of IR is really something ive never seen before. My cousins used to have some really violent fights on whether SPB or KJ Yesudoss was better. I guess this is something like this. Its ok to think IR is a genius film musician but i dont think u can remove Rehman just like that. I dont think you would ever be able to agree upon this simply because your hero worship is blinding you from looking at others.
> This is probably a very stupid question, but as a westerner > raised as a Protestant Christian, with a very simple severe > code of faith: no images, only Jesus & God to be revered: > since you're very articulate, can you describe to me the > wonder and joy you felt as a child when taken to a temple?
Hi Kathie even today when parents take children to the temples its like a huge play field for them. the earliest memory of hinduism to any indian kid would be when he is naughty- 'if you are naughty god will poke your eyes'. it sort of reinforces the feeling of karma or newtons every action law. it builds a beleif that god is all seeing and none of our actions can be hidden from him.he is omni present at a slightly older stage we learn the hindu epics where the bad always come to very terrible ends. their entrails plucked out like hiranya or heads cut off like ravana. most of us get a beleif that god is omnipotent. some castes like the bramhins have a ceremony before the teens- the upanayana which i think reinforces the religious aspect. not many other communities have a similar habit. but i feel the reinforcement of a devotion to god comes to every individual. we have saints who were the most non religious till their teens or even till their fifties. religion stuck them like a lightning. in my experience the most devoted men were not those who had the devotion from child hood.
venketesh
> If that's what you felt? What did Sanatana Dharma feel > like to you, growing up ? I'm fascinated with the way other > people see the world and how they feel they must act in it. > > Congregational & Presbyterian Christianity is very simple, no frills, > no images, just a cross on a table in front, good organ music > and quite a bit of congregational singing, no images. [ I think > we're starved for images] > Only a few prayers chanted together: but it expects good behavior & no > pride ! -- > PRIDE's considered one of the greatest sins. > Northern Europe is dark a lot of the year, which I think creates a > dark outlook, > yet people descended from there love myths, rituals, > stories of all kinds, told in the black nights. > Of course you know that Indo-European languages connect > us from Oriya to Welsh. > > I was thrilled when I learned that the God of Fire in India, > was AGNI, which means FIRE in Latin. And that he rides a > ram - - - Agnus is the name for lamb, in Latin. Christ > is Agnus Dei, Lamb of God. -- it's all related. > Wow, you talk of rambling ? > Hope you don't mind. > Please tell me of the pleasures of Sanatana Dharma. > > Kathie >
Ok.. from a slightly different perspective, even as a non-religious person (call me agnostic..) I still find tremendous peace when I visit a temple.. not one of the well known temples where you get about a millisecond glimpse of the Idol, but some of the older more secluded temples. (You would probably have made out by now that I am not a big Thirupathi fan). Anyway, regardless of whether I believe in God or not, the very sights and smells of these old temples evokes something in me.. the smell of incense, of fresh flowers, of sandalwood and kumkum and milk and oil... a heady sense of my culture.. for I might be irreligious and agnostic or even atheistic but you still can't take the sum of my culture, something that has come down through millenia out of me.
So I would suggest that Sanathana Dharma is not merely for those that believe in God.. :) but for others as well! It is more than just the sum of its components.. it is a way of life.
Dear Venketesh, I misspelled your name. Really sorry.
Thank you for your personal comments on temple-going. One thing that's always impressed me about Shanatana Dharma is that even the evilest asura is redeemed by whichever righteous deity defeats/kills them: an example -- the way Kaliya is shown in most murthis -- in anjali mudra, smiling up at Lord Krishna dancing on his head.