கல்கி அவர்களின் பொன்னியின் செல்வனில் பெண்களுக்கு சமமான இடம் அந்த சூழலில் இருப்பதாக காட்டப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. பல இடங்களில் அவர் பெண்களின் சுயமரியாதைக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுத்து குறிப்பிடுகின்றார்.
இன்றைய தமிழ் குடும்பங்களில் அது எப்படி உள்ளது? கணவர்கள் தங்கள் மனைவியின் சுயமரியாதையை எந்த அலளவுக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுகிறார்கள்? தன்னை விட மனைவியின் கருத்துக்கு சுயமரியாதைக்கும் அதிகம் முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுகிரர்களா , சமமாக நினைகிரர்களா அல்லது தாழ்வாக நினைகிரர்களா? அல்லது கொடுப்பதுதான் நல்ல பண்பு என்பதால் கொடுக்க முயல்கிறார்களா? மனைவிக்கு சுயமரியாதை உண்டு என்பதை பலர் மறந்து விடுகிறார்களா? மற்றவர் முன்னில்லையில் மனைவியின் சுயமரியாதை கேடாதாவன்னம் பார்த்துகொல்கிற அவர்கள் தான் மட்டும் அதை போருட்பதுதாது உள்ளார்களா? பெண்களே தங்கள் சுயமரியாதையை அவர்கள்ளுக்காக விட்டு கொடுப்பதால் அதை பெரிதாக எண்ணுவதில்லை
Dear Priya, you touched on a great subject! Tamilil ezhuda aaval aanal font and patience irandum illai.
Kalki had different extremes while portraying women. I'd like to think men's mindset is somewhat the same, you have very traditional and very progressive and all the in betweens. On one hand Kalki admired a woman who walked out on a man who ill treated her (Savitri of Tyaga Bhoomi) and other women who put up with endless mistreatment until she dies (Sita of Alai Osai). There are women who are excellent in governing (Kundavai Piratti), irrittatingly doormat (Vaanadhi), talented and outspoken (Poonguzhali, Sivakami and Kundavi). In parts of PS Kalki goes as far as eulogising Sati (one of my greatest grouses with him) - and of all people from Kundavai's mouth.
So there you go, all types for all people. And how about women's mindset about women's self respect? I would think respect begins at home and most women are happy to look the other way as long as they are happy/their spouse treats them well etc, meaning pretend like no problems exist? To me that is the heart of the issue. The Kundavis of the world who eulogise Sati (or similar) becuase their life is happy and comfortable.
Malathi, What you told about women's mindset about women's self respect is greatly true. I too accept it. And have you noticed there wasn't much response to this subject....?!
Its a chicken and egg story....one group will always argue that women dont have the needed freedom and another group will say they have achieved it and another group will say they never lost it to achieve it.
So I feel any discussion on this subject will lead to a conclusion and probably thats why kept quite on this topic.
If we look back, we can say Draupadhi was bound to her husbands and she suffered a lot and took all the pains. On the other hand, Kannagi had the liberty to walk right into the kings court and blast him like anything (though she took all the pains from Kovalan throughout her life, she never felt them to be pain). Kundavai had a strong hold in the politics, sembian madevi had all her say to spend as she want, but there were princes married for political alliance without their consents.
So its relative and depends on the individual. First a women should define her own level of freedom. If a grihalakshmi (thats what we call our women folk) of today wants to go to pub and come home past midnight, drinking and having lot of boy friends and claim that her husband is questioning her for this act and hence she has no freedom, what do you want to comment on this. I do accept there are reverse cases as well.
There can be only three cases in a family, either chidambara or madurai or equal play. While talking on this subject only Chidambaram instances come into picture and the other two are always left out. Thats why I said its a never ending story.
Do we have womens liberation? - yes and no. Thats the answer I can give.
Its like asking Is India is Secular? - I would say Yes and No.
SINCE I FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE AND HAPPY TO WRITE IN TAMIL, I PUT IT IN TAMIL. SORRY THAT SOME OF YOU COULDN'T READ IT. I WILL CONVEY THE MESSAGE IN ENGLISH.
IN KALKI'S PS, IT HAS BEEN SHOWN THAT LADIES HAVE EQUAL STATUS IN THE SOCIETY DURING THAT PERIOD. IN MANY PLACES, HE HAS GIVEN IMPORTANCE TO WOMEN'S SELF-RESPECT.
IN TODAY'S TAMIL FAMILIES, HOW IS THE SITUATION? HOW MUCH IMPORTANCE DOES A HUSBAND PAY TO HIS WIFE'S SELF-RESPECT? IS THIS IMPORTANCE TO HIS WIFE'S VIEW'S AND SELF-RESPECT, IF ANY, IS GREATER, EQUAL OR LOWER THAN HIS OWN? OR SINCE HE IS FEELS IT IS THE MODESTY, DOES HE TRIES GIVE IMPORTANCE TO WIFE'S SELF-RESPECT? OR DO SEVERAL PEOPLE FORGET IN THEIR DAILY ROUTINE, THAT HIS WIFE TOO HAS SELF-RESPECT? OR THE SAME HUSBANDS WHO PROTECT THE WIFE'S SELF-RESPECT IN FRONT OF OTHERS OFTEN IGNORE IT WHEN IT COMES FOR THEM? ARE THEY NOT BOTHERING SINCE THE WOMEN ARE READY TO GIVE IT UP FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR HUSBAND? OR, ARE THE HUSBANDS REALLY VERY KEEN IN PROTECTING THEIR WIFE'S SELF-RESPECT? LOOKING FORWARD FOR ALL YOUR VIEWS...
Priya, now that you presented it again there will be more comments, we have talked about this before, albeit in somewhat different ways. We had a really extensive discussion on the practice of Sati and its references in PS. I alsotried to presenta modern version of Kalki's Thyaga Bhoomi, arguably his best work as far as social justice and women's issues go. Have you read it?
I could read the tamil content when character encoding is set to unicode in firefox brouser (both in the original posting and in this 'reply' posting; I believe they whocan tinker with the settings will not face any problem in reading.
Priya, I did write a long reply, but realized that any response to this matter from a male has to be defensive, and I didnt like being there, and discarded the response. But am with you. I understand what you mean (my wife was a great eye-opener for me on this topic), and agree that as a society, we have a long way to go to treat man and woman as equals.
> And have you noticed there wasn't much response to this subject....?!
Men expect to be treated the same way a woman expects to be treated. If there is no response to the topic, please see it as an indication that 'people' are not interested in responding - not that 'men' do not respond. Also, you seem to already assume that there are only men in this group (apart from Malathy, of course ;). And also you seem to equate the small subgroup this forum is to larger one that is the society.
The above statement of yours reaffirms my belief that most women tend to 'think' from their heart when they talk this subject. No offense meant, but do not hit below the belt.
Ok.. as a tamilian.. I think Tamizh Nadu is probably the MOST male chauvinistic of the four southern states. Having lived in TN and now living in Bangalore.. there is a marked difference in the way women are treated. In spite of all talk of the "glorious Tamizh kalaachaaram", I find that the way men even look at women in TN is rather lascivious... I do not find that here in Bangalore or not to any discernible extent. I think our pictures reinforce this to a large extent with Rajni, Vijay films etc coming up with dialogues like "Ponnu na adakkama irukkaNum".. etc etc.. completely ridiculous in this day and age but that's how it goes. I am sure if Rajni said stuff like that in his own home, his daughters wouldn't stand for it.. but hey.. the masses are happy.
I have been in Bangalore for over 5 years, and I agree that thats what you see on the surface. I even heard one friend of mine comment to his daughter - 'Inga ponnunga evvalavu thairiyama nadakka mudiyuthu, kindal kaelikku aalaakama....'.
So far, so good. But I suggest you look at the 'real' kannadigas - hard to find in Bangalore thought ;) You would find that they have an equally conservative view about women in the family. In fact, kannadigas are far more patriotic about thier land and language than the common man in tamil nadu. I think this might extend to thier outlook on culture too.
Oh nice to know you are in Bangalore too :) Well, you might well be right about actual kannadigas in which case I would be very disappointed. The thing is, even in a small town like Mysore, I have seen girls walk by in all sorts of dresses without anyone commenting, or molesting them. I don't think even in a city like Coimbatore (which is bigger than Mysore) that is possible (and i should know.. my parents live there). In general I think we are quite hypocritical about our attitude to women.
I used to live in Bangalore. Not anymore. Bangalore is different because it is cosmopoliton. Mysore - maybe because it is a tourist city. But on the whole, I agree - the kind of trouble women go through here, especially in Chennai is pretty bad.
Am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. I'm proud of our culture and what we are too.
But we should admit that teasing women in public places - has unfortunately - become all too common in our City nowadays. Blame it on the channels or the education, but the fact remains that this is a prevalent problem.
We are not talking about women's conservativeness, or of their dressing, or their velippura/utpura munnaetram (? you seem to equate wearing jeans to munnaetram, I humbly disagree... anyways...) - thats personal to the woman, but of the problem she faces day-to-day trying to work shoulder-to-shoulder with men.
- We are not talking about women's conservativeness, or of their dressing, > or their velippura/utpura munnaetram (? you seem to equate wearing jeans to munnaetram, I humbly disagree... anyways...) - thats personal to the woman, > but of the problem she faces day-to-day trying to work shoulder-to- shoulder > with men. > > Regards, > Madan. ======================
Dear Madhan,
I have taken the second part of your message ...
ENLIST THE CEOs of Corporates .. Banks.. Business Establishments
Enough is written in Mangayar Malar, Snehithi, Avall ( She) , etc., etc., on day-to-day problems of Women as well as GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS of them !
Infotech, Airtravel, Hospitals, Hospitality, Police, Special Guards... are the Avenues are not increasing to Women ?
Chennai is different .. Metropolitan turning Cosmopolitan of late.
Look at the road accidents thefts homicides fire accidents and EQUATE them with the Population ...
Compare that Pro-rata with that of Towns ...
You will find it will be lesser in Chennai..
Likewise Pls EQUATE Problems Vs Avenues / Opportunities ..
probably we can realise that more progress is made in bridging the gap towards Equality.
> Also, you seem to already assume that there are only men in this group > (apart from Malathy, of course ;).
Hi this group is known for very active feminine participation.not that i want to differentiate. a couple of years back uma, swetha, suganya wouldnt let a single discussion go away without their inputs.
in fact a lot of us had a different insight into kalki's mind when the womenfolk in tahanjai trip came forward to analyse the male charecters of ponniyin selvan.
This group is not really typical of the average Tamilian I think. If only our state could be the way this group is.. where women are treated with respect.. their opinions listened to etc. I think there is still a tendency in our state, why, even in India to not really pay much attention to what a woman says. My wife is finding this out now, even in Bangalore. While looking for apartments/houses, if I spoke to the agents, the response would be much more positive/faster than if she were to go around making calls. Is driving her nuts!
I don't mean to imply that a girl wearing jeans is more liberated than one wearing a paavadai thavani.. it has more to deal with how our men view women in general. In Sinapore, when we lived there, the ONLY place where women were reluctant to go was to little India. My cousin summed it up succinctly.. "Kannalaye Rape panniduvaanga".. we never found this anywhere else in Singapore.. so this has something to do with our culture.. Tamil/Indian call it what you will. Maybe the conservativeness and the segregation of sexes from a very young age, leads to suppressed feelings which comes out as boorishness. It is a harsh truth, but truth nonetheless :)
Of course SPS-sir. Am proud of Chennai. And, I do think highly of the lower crime-rates and incidents here. Thank you for elaborately describing that we are a great city.
I think Mysore is cosmopolitan more because of the fact that it is a University town. As for Chennai, a Mangalorean lady at work told me that when she had gone to Chennai a few years back as part of a college group, she was amazed at the oggling that men in Chennai did and that she had never faced that in Bangalore.. She said that what surprised her was that it was happening in a big city like Chennai. I can relate to it.. I was a student in Chennai and have seen umpteen cases of eve teasing on buses. This was in the late 80s.. so a good 20 years ago. Things might well have changed and if they have changed for the better, am very happy about that!
Arun, Coimbatore..oh wow..I could write volumes..I grew up there...if you want to combine all the 'graamiya' movies made it would not take a candle to the conservativsm in Coimbatore as far as women go. When I went to school there - after 8th grade it is not ok to wear anything other than pavada/dhavani. It is not ok to sit next to a man in the bus even if I am a seventh grader and he is older than my grandpa. It is absolutely not ok for women to work (my cousin who used to work in a bank regularly used to face abuse even from customers, indha pappara ponnunga veetula irukkama inge enna pannareenga). Coimbatore is the heartland of conservative TN - very rich people and very old conservative attitudes. Over 80% of the girls in my class of 53 girls were engaged to be married by the time we reached 9th grade. This was in the late 80s, not that far back. There was alsoa fairly large population of rich north indians where girls did as they pleased, but if you want to relate to the local tamil populace, forget it you have to embrace what they think.
Some of it might have changed now. A lot of it I don't believe will change very easily. It is very deep rooted and very strong - and it has a lot to do with the women who are used to rich lifestyles and so called 'security' that lifestyle provides. Can't have the cake and eat it also.
Dear SPS, I have lived in different parts of India..and abroad too. TN IS among most male chauvinistic, without a doubt. We have to understand what that means though, it really does not mean women don't have work opportunites or how many jobs are taken by women. In this area the whole of India has made remarkable progress. I put a lot of that down to increasing need for money, first of all, and lifestyles that have changed from simple to more demanding and complex.
Chauvinism basically means mindset or common man's attitudes and thoughts around women. I still remember this hugely chauvinistic Satyaraj song, forget the lines, something about ponnunga and teasing a woman wearing western clothes, it was hugely popular in 90s. As long as a women is draped in traditional clothes, thinks of husband as God, and does not speak up, she can work in a senior position that is fine, but even then permission to do the same comes from a man.
And to summarize what Arun said - in Bangalore, Mumbai and places like that, nobody even notices if you are a man or a woman generally on the street or mostly even in buses. In Mumbai matter of fact it is 100% safe to walk out at 11 pm in most places for a woman. TN has ways to go before getting there, and as Gandhi said that would be true progress - to walk out at 11 pm safe.
Surely, without the support and understanding of his wife he could not have achieved what he achieved? I felt he was being very ungrateful. I have not read any of his other books and don't know much more about him, therefore may be completley wrong. If so please correct me.
I console myself by thinking it was probaly on par with the period he lived, but SPS sir's email implies differently.
I think one of the mistakes we make is in thinking that just because we have a female head of state or a female head of a political party, women are treated well in India. We have Goddesses .. but that doesn't mean that we treat women well by any stretch of the imagination. As Malathy said, more than the opportunities that women get, it is in the way that men view women that needs to be changed. As tamilians, it is up to us to be that change!
You are from Coimbatore!! Well my parents are from coimbatore, all my aunts, uncles, cousin live there. My aunts (father's sisters) are very conservative that they did not let my elder sister do her masters saying "Neraya padichirundha maapila thedarathu kashtam". After marriage, she completed her masters.
I did my Mastersfrom ADU, coimbatore.Unforgettable years in my life.
Madan, Thanks for your response. You said you wrote a long reply and discarded being a male. There is nothing wrong in posting whatever your views are. Please don't have any inhibitions. What I feel is whenever we think about an issue, our gender/sex (whether male or female) should have no effect on it. Otherwise, it might be biased. By the way, I donot understand what you imply by most women tend to 'think' from their heart, please clarify.
Dear Anandhi, yes I grew up in Kovai, unforgettable years for me too!! We lived in the RS Puram area. I went to school at St Josephs. Most of my friends lived the area between RS Puram and mid Kovai (Chintamani). Talk of opulence and wealth, US suburbs look lower middle class compared to those mansions :))
Kovai had its charms. People had money and were very laidback, quite unlike stress ridden Chennai :) Politeness was the norm, you could even ask a stranger for help. Auto people did not cheat. And it was safe (atleast in those days). My mom and me used to walk back after second show at night (since movies were the only time pass) with no fear of anyone or anything. I hear it is grossly overpopulated nowadays, and traffic/busyness has taken over, like anywhere else.
I am not surprised that your cousins had to be married off. If you live there a lot of conservative ideas sink in, slowly or surely. I have never ever seen girls so spoilt as they are in Kovai - life was about movies, eating out, and sari shopping, that is all. If all our friends are like that what dowe do, same ultimately.
Where did you live in Kovai? Would love to hear more. I beleive Shoba also said she is from there.
Actually I have mixed thoughts/experiences on that. Atleast in US. I have handled several home renovation projects and dealt with contractors - painters, electricians, plumbers etc. Be clear in communication, specific about $ that is all and most of the time work gets done. I must confess I cannot possibly do that back home. I don't know how to deal with laborers in indian fashion and bargain about money. I don't bargain in India, am too soft hearted to bargain with people who sell vegetables and make a hundred times less money than I do. And what that means is to be taken for a long merry ride.
In US you cannot get things done if you are condescending or patronizing. People do not like that at all. A plumber is like a software engineer. Just another profession. As long as we can remember that it is usually easy. Usually.
Dear Malathi , Anandhi I live in Kovai now. Grew up in Chennai. We've been here only for 5+ yrs.now. Kovai continues to be polite & has not lost any of the charms Malathi mentioned. The Auto drivers have changed though, I cannot say they cheat but they charge the moon, you end up paying more than you would in Chennai for the same distance. I do not know if it is still safe at night, but mornings as early as 5a.m. I've seen women walking alone in the race course & it is quite safe to do that. I've not seen any eveteasing in the last 5 yrs. People continue to be conservative , I would rather use the word traditional, women are educated & go to work too, may be not from the affluent business families. As for equality or freedom of women I'd say it totally depends on the woman to establish her individuality, while keeping the family in mind.
some one had mentioned that women states of head in Asian countries. They have fallen into two categories mostly, either they are the powerful and autocractic like Indira Gandhi, Jayalalitha, Mayawati, Sheikh hasina, Benazir or they arecontrolled by invisible hands or a coterie group like Sonia gandhi, rabri devi etc. Business world has thrown up people who are actually in between Indira Nooyi current hot-throb.
I believe there is no stopping womenwho can be forceful but not authoritarian. Glass ceiling has been shown to be broken many times, there might organizations which hold on to glass ceilings, but a little determination and setting up of priorities can get them to break it. As Napolean Hill says, dream it, desire it then youreach it. Nobody needs to give any freedom, youjust take it as it is your right as a human being.
Please dont look for hand-me-downs, especially quota system(most ill suited for women's needs). Traditional indian societies have come a long way from keeping women in their kitchens.
It takes a long time for societal evils especially eve-teasing to go away and Sex based Segregationhelps promoteeve-teasing and aggressive behaviour in boys.
If Mother Teresa had been worried about such ills then she would have not accomplished so much in her time.
I strongly believe both JJ and Indira Gandhi are men in women bodies, in other words they had to sacrifice all femininity to be where they are. Am not sure if that is the goal of every woman (definitely not mine). I have heard several women say that even in the States, that since climbing the corporate ladder means being a 'man' atleast technically they don't consider that progress. Feminine styles of leadership is not understood at all, definitely not in male dominated societies such as India and United States. Some european cultures seemed better evolved in that regard - some women I have met from France and Sweden seemed lot more confident, gentle leaders without aggression. BTW there are lots of men who are like that too who do not conform to traditional definions of being male (loud, aggressive, dominating) and yet are very good leaders in their own right.
Am not sure if anyone has addressed this issue before, the #1 problem women have in India is sexual abuse at work. There is little/no protection from law, from managements, from anyone for a woman who faces abuse from male managers and co workers. It is widely prevelant even in so called professional environments - the woman being married is perhaps only a little safeguard.And of course, if you are not attractive noone is interested :) But there are lots of silent sufferers who do it for their families.
THat is a very good point Malathy. Especially for widowed or divorced women, sexual abuse at work is rampant.. and like you mentioned, there seems to be little or no recourse for them!
Yes there are some real bad people out there who dont have any ethics or moral behavior. Predators are always going to be there, how the deer survives in the savannah is nature at its best.
Women are usually better in handling strategies in politics, unusual comment, but stats say so, they also take old decisions and usually they are fearless on taking decisions. Women also out perform men in marketing/sales activities. Men must learn to admire and respect the talent available and also not lose out on learning standing behind a charm of ego.
However, it would be prudent to say that all women are innocent and only victims of circumstances. There are some real charecters out there. Eppavuma gundoosi kulla nool nozhaya mudiyathu....
Given the space and freedom Women are too good in their professional life. After K.V Kamath, till recently all the three No.2 in ICICI Bank were women. Also another fact about women is that without a backing Spouse / father / Mentor (Male) no women has won even a panjayat election. This was way back in early 90s when my English Professor quoted a research paper. Not sure whether that holds good even today.
Yes it is hard for a woman to succeed anywhere, even in an ordinary work situation without backing of a man. It is simple statistics there are more men than women and it is still a man's world. I am not sure if that is any more complex than that.
Ravi, interesting to know that women are better strategists, sounds logical to me since generally men are given to more direct thinking almost all the time. Very generally that is. Am not at all sure about the marketing part,for one thing there are very few women in marketing compared to men and it would be unfair to draw any conclusion based on that.
As far as generalising about innocence and other traits, well all people men or women are human. It is not possible to generalise like that. But on the other hand an advanced society provides certain options to people who are caught in bad/troublesome situations. Unfortunately that is very much missing in India. A woman caught in a sexual abuse situation is more than likely to be stigmatised (we are Sita's country after all!!) let alone protected.
> Am not at all sure about the marketing part,for one thing there are > very few women in marketing compared to men and it would be unfair > to draw any conclusion based on that. True, but women are naturally agressive. Analyze the female of any species and you will find some interesting facts. Its an instinct of relentless pursuit which is natural to any woman.
In essence however, we work at our best when we work as a unit. Thought and Action must propel together. Its impossible to see any of our Gods without their lady component tied together. Kumbitta mattum pothuma dont we need to take a leaf from the book.
I lived in R.S.Puram area too. I did my C Programming from Aptech there long time back. The Aptech was near Pazhamudhir Cholai in RS puram. I started my carreer there as a data entry operator (the famous Tally software), for a Kannan Devan Tea agency also in RS.P.
R.S. Puram is one of my favourite places there, next is Saibaba colony (these two are proof for the richness of the city). I hope it still stays the same even though it is crowded and everything. Last time I was in coimbatore was 4 yrs back. Had to go through lot of check posts to enter into the city. I have relatives lining from Singanallur to Ganapathi to Perur. I can still remember the bus routes and streets crystal clear.
I do see how spoilt the girls are there. Most of cousins are married and settled in coimbatore. Not just sari shopping, jewelry shopping too. My thaatha wanted to get his daughters married within coimbatore. They were very protective of their kids. Until I was 5 yrs old, we were in coimbatore and then moved out. My father worked for Kamala (not sure of the name - from the LMW family) mills there.
My chithappa used to write jokes for AV (his name is Kinathukadavu Ravi). He is in R.S.Puram. My aunties in Ramanathapuram, Big Bazar Street (famous periya kadai veethi), cousins singanallur. I was visiting my aunt in Big Bazar street, coimbatore when the Pillaiyar drinking milk episode happened. Part of my masters I stayed in Sungam (near Nirmala College).