how literate can a toddy gather be in ancient india
  • http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/13/stories/2008051355252000.htm

    The tale of a broken pot



    Iravatham Mahadevan and S. Rajagopal








    — Photo: Courtesy Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology

    The broken pot from Andipatti, stored in a museum.

    Today I am a broken pot stored away in a museum. But, about eighteen
    hundred years ago, I was a shining new kalayam. My proud owner was a
    toddy-tapper named Naakan. He lived in a small hamlet at the edge of
    the forest (near present-day Andipatti in Theni district of Tamil
    Nadu).

    Naakan was too poor to own land; but he earned his living by taking
    on lease some coconut and palmyra trees, tapping and selling the
    toddy.

    There were several toddy-tappers in the hamlet. They would climb the
    trees early in the morning, make deep cuts on the crown of the trees
    with their sharp bill-hooks, and tie their pots beneath to collect
    the sap (juice) that oozed from the cuttings.

    The pots, when full, would be taken down and stored for a few days
    to allow fermenting of the sap into toddy, for which there was a
    good market.

    Etched belongings


    Poor he might have been, but Naakan was literate. In order to
    identify his kalayam and its contents, he scratched this message on
    it with his sharp iron tool:

    naakan uRal `Naakan's (pot with) toddy-sap'

    The Tamil word ooRal (from ooRu `to ooze') meaning `freshly tapped
    toddy' is spelt here with the short vowel u probably due to
    oversight or reflecting the colloquial usage.

    Determining age


    Archaeologists who dug me out of the earth near Andipatti a couple
    of years ago, have determined from examining the fabric of my body,
    that I was made in about the third century A.D. Epigraphists (who
    study old inscriptions) have identified the writing on my shoulder
    as in Old Tamil written in the Tamil-Brahmi script of the same
    period.

    And that is not all. The two-word inscription carries an important
    message, namely, how widespread literacy must have been in the
    ancient Tamil country, if a poor toddy-tapper, living in a remote
    hamlet far away from urban and commercial centres, could write down
    his name and what he was doing with the pottery he owned.

    That is the reason why I am preserved in the museum and not
    discarded like other broken pottery!

    Iravatham Mahadevan is a well-known researcher of the Indus and
    Brahmi scripts. Dr. S. Rajagopal is a senior archaeologist
    specialising in Old Tamil inscriptions, who retired from the Tamil
    Nadu State Department of Archaeology.
  • Its a toddy pot, so we canbe rest assured that Nakkan wrote it :-)
    Also any info on, when was toddy a start in our country ?
  • Just for vadam (vidandhavadam???)......

    Going by Madan's thought, which seems a bit logical.....

    1000 years later, all our records will be found in English....includin
    the PS mails...and karpooram ethi sathiyam pannalum, PS tamil literary
    forumnu namba matanga....
    Interpretation can be like this - People of this area used English as
    their primary language, but were knowledgeable in another language,
    ie. tamil too and discussed extensively on PS.

    History is as we interpret.....

    ithu nijama vidandavadham thane?
  • If this pot from 3rd century AD, then what was the tamil script used for epics likesilapadikaram, which are believed to be of the same age? Is it tamil-brahmi or vatezhettu script?
  • Unfortunately we cant determine that...all the eedu shelf life is 200
    yrs max...so every script we have present day was copy of the old palm
    script by some person ...except for few palm leaves stored in Tibet
    while bhuddist from Tn went to Tibet.
    Palm leaves get destroyed due to our climate...and majorly due to
    white ants or termites....
    other things are flood....and ppl also had practice of putting old edu
    in river as part of festival or ritual....
    so we have lost so many palm leaves for so many diff reasons....
    so what ever palm leaves we have was probably written in 17 or 18th
    century by some scholar who copied it from a older script....
    so here comes the problem wether a work is of a single person....
    there have been proofs where the person who copies writes his own
    stuff and deletes the orginal stuff....
    A French translator of Thirukural in 18th century had more than 1330
    Thirukurals in Palm leaves..
    There has also been an instant where editor mahabaratha was shivate
    and hence removed orignal passage and inserted passages to praise
    shiva when he copied the orginal text....
    The problem of Dating with Tolkapiyam is that it has hands of many
    people....
    So in Tamil Nadu no plam leave is original...every thing is a copied
    version...
    If at all anything survived ...then it is in some European library

    Vairam
  • very true Vairam.

    U.Ve.Sa in his autobiography would have expressed his pain when he
    narrates how he searched for the palm leaves.

    The tradition is to copy the text in new palm leaves and then throw
    the damaged/old things in river or fire. But people due to
    misinterpretation started doing only the second part and never copied
    the original text. we lost a lot of, not just copies but the original
    text itself. If properly preserved we would have had more sangam
    literature in the list then the few we have now (intha 'few've
    ivvalavu content-na, full evvalavu irunthirukkum).
  • I agree that toddy gatherers among themselves should be able to read, which
    the reason it was scribed...

    I would really be proud if education was very prevalent in ancient times in
    tamilnadu.

    Having said those, I still feel that this cannot substansiate the fact that
    literacy rate was high in those times.

    For example, consider this:
    In current times, with so many boards and hoardings (that display alphabets
    basically), with a widespread and highly available education system, we
    still come across people who cannot even string letters together. Even with
    the absence of a formal education, the huge need to constantly decipher
    words can still make illiterate people a little more language oriented
    nowadays.

    Things must have been very different in the 3rd century AD. Education was
    limited to certain classes, with gurukula being the primary form of formal
    education (am assuming this, please correct me if I am wrong), and very
    little artificial signboards, the necessity to decipher letters of any form
    would have been very minimal. So, with no formal education, most of such
    people would have no need at all to encounter any form of literature. Which
    is probably why education is given so much importance in our culture (naalu
    ezhuthhu padichavan). These people would probably not even feel the pinch of
    not knowing the alphabets, because the lifestyle would not have required
    them to - This is my humble opinion.

    These are the reasons am skeptical about concluding that toddy-gatherers
    would be educated - or that the society in general would be highly literate
    based on just this artifact. Probably Iravatham sir might have seen more
    that might have led him to conclude so. This is not mentioned in the
    article.

    Another possibility could be that there were two forms of writing - one
    commonly and colloquially used among the masses, and another elite language.

    We constantly see such occurings even today - tamil is the common language
    while english is (kinda) the elitist language in our society today. I hear
    latin education was considered elitist and a compulsory subject (even though
    it did not have any practical usage) till sometime last century in many
    universities - english then being the common language in UK/US.

    Could it be that tamilbramhi was the commoners language which was widely
    prevalent - which required little or no formal education, while there was
    another form of elitist tamil/other languages/script?
  • *"
    Remember that the story is deciphered only based on Two Words, just Two
    Words that is "naakan URal". Irukkara kOttula nAma rOdu pOtturukkOm....
    avvaLavudhAn."
    *
    True.
    Maybe Mr.Naakan was a big toddy barron (Just for illustration sake...
    someone like vjay Mallaya ;) ).

    and
    **
    he had lots of plantations to extract toddy where he employed other people
    to gather toddy for him.
    We can never conclude that naakan was "the" toddy collector. He could have
    emplyed lot of people do that for him, and these people employed by him *need
    not be literate.*
    My point is education might still have been available to only a few and we
    can never be sure that Naakan was a toddy collector and he was literate.
  • Dear Raghavendra

    That is a good and possible perspective. Now I am really curious as
    to how Iravatham,deciphered the story on the basis of these two
    words. What were the other pointers that made him conclude so.
  • Sorry, I missed this. Regarding the literacy prevalent then, I would
    still like to stick my point that basic education was available for a
    larger section, while certain eductation were restricted for certain
    classes, as there are no accounts (unless I am corrected) indicating
    that the kings did not allow basic education to the people in the lower
    rungs of the society. Also on a logical reasoning, a country can be
    prosperous only if the literacy is high. Looking a the glory of India in
    older days, which invited all the foreigners to invade us, I have to
    conclude that the literacy was, if not so great, definitely better than
    what we see today.
  • -Hi
    thats a good point

    like hotels in early 1900's used to inscribe " ithu aanandavilaasil
    thirudappattathu"


    or could be the man who leased it

    venketesh

    - In ponniyinselvan@yahoogroups.com, "Raghavendra Prasad
  • Are people aware ofany literature works that survived the transition and be available in original form? or at least stone inscriptions with gradual transitions from tamil-brahmi to vatezhettu?
  • > -Hi
    > thats a good point
    >
    > like hotels in early 1900's used to inscribe " ithu aanandavilaasil
    > thirudappattathu"
    >
    >
    > or could be the man who leased it
    >
    > venketesh
    >
    Leasing of an earthern pot - wow, we often read of how rich tamil
    kings n merchants were ( the famous roman coffers being drained story)
    but this is really heights on the other side - how meagre would be the
    mortal possessions of a toddy gatherer that he had to safe guard an
    earthern pot with his etched name!!! or how valuable was a earthern
    pot that he feared it would get stolen ! or mistaken for somebody
    elses...or maybe it was just his favorite pot ( ala mohinder's red
    hankerchief)
  • Hi,
    This is my perspective of the event, toddy pots are usually tied to
    coconut or palm trees and are removed when it needs to drunk. I have
    seen this in lot of movies!....
    So basically pot which is tied over the tree has these
    inscriptions. We usually know that coconut fields are very big and
    coconut trees close to each other. There might be many toddy
    collectors using the same farm. SO there might be a need to identify
    whose pot was up in the tree since some times it might be confusing to
    identify the right tree.
    So the identity can be in any form...may be a paint or some mark
    or coloured cloth around it etc. and every body who were using the
    farm should be aware of that sign and recognize whose pot it is.
    Here instead of any obscure symbol they have used the alphabets
    itself, it means every body using the farm should have been able to
    identify what was inscribed in it.
    This is an indicator that people working in the farm were literate
    enough to understand what was written on the pot.
  • Vijay,

    I think its not literally leasing of an earthen pot.
    Lets say there where 4-5 toddy makers in the village.. The pot might be just
    a identification of a particular cultivator.. say he had 100 palm trees, May
    be there where a hundred earthen pots with the inscription "naakan URal" to
    mark his trees and pots and differentiate them from the rest.

    on a lighter note:
    For all we know it might even be the earliest form of branding of products..
    May be Naakan's Toddy was a big brand.. Just like we have pepsi trucks and
    containers.. naakan might have had his own branding to stand out of the
    rest.. Its amazing how a two liner can be interpreted into n different
    meaning..
  • Vairam,

    Silver bullet explanation. Great!
  • > on a lighter note:
    > For all we know it might even be the earliest form of branding of
    products..
    > May be Naakan's Toddy was a big brand.. Just like we have pepsi
    trucks and
    > containers.. naakan might have had his own branding to stand out of
    the
    > rest.. Its amazing how a two liner can be interpreted into n
    different
    > meaning..
    >
    > Regards,

    Superb....Naakan's Toddy - has a ring to it as well. Sps sir, like you
    say PSVP has truly become a Kallu Kadai now
  • - how meagre would be
    the
    > mortal possessions of a toddy gatherer that he had to safe guard an
    > earthern pot with his etched name!!! or how valuable was a earthern
    > pot that he feared it would get stolen ! or mistaken for somebody
    > elses...or maybe it was just his favorite pot ( ala mohinder's red
    > hankerchief)
    >


    vijaykumar
    marathula kaLLu irakki parthirukiyaa?
    its not a instantaneous process.
    you have to cut the peduncle of the bunch of flowers and let it drain
    drop by drop over days
    so the writing is not only for the pot also for its contents.


    so the wordings actually meant, en kaLLai thottaal uthaippEn

    venketesh
  • > vijaykumar
    > marathula kaLLu irakki parthirukiyaa?

    Eppadi bagiranga ma, sabaiyile katta eppadi....
  • >
    > vijaykumar
    > marathula kaLLu irakki parthirukiyaa?
    > its not a instantaneous process.
    > you have to cut the peduncle of the bunch of flowers and let it
    drain
    > drop by drop over days
    > so the writing is not only for the pot also for its contents.
    >
    >
    > so the wordings actually meant, en kaLLai thottaal uthaippEn
    >
    > venketesh
    >
    Now i know how much research you did for nandan and his oru marathu
    kallu ( sorry rest of the gang - you need to read thillaiyil oru
    kollaikaran to understand this...

    vj
  • mmmmmm Interesting!
  • Appa, the whole string is very interesting.
  • Thanks, Venkateswaran. Will go through it and reply.
  • Re: [ponniyinselvan] Re: how literate can a toddy gather be in
    ancient india


    Dear SPS,



    I can write about the Tamil-Brahmi (TB) script as I did lot of study
    on this in the past.



    May be we can organize a scholarly meeting with I. Mahadevan. Our
    group members will be happy to meet him.
  • yes, yes. I agree. Venkateshwaran, please write more.

    Maybe we should show this thread to Iravatham sir and clarify our comments.
  • Hi..

    Any thoughts what makes to adopt vatezhettu from Tamil Brahmi scripts
    during that 6-7 century time frame?

    With regards,
    Raj.
  • Hi SPS sir,

    How do you do?

    Ya.. Still in Bangalore, but currently in travel to US-San Diego for
    a month period..

    Often visiting the groups, but really feeling bad that I couldn't
    actively participate..

    BUT really the knowledge level of our groups members stunning me !!!
    Tons of things to learn and enjoy....

    Really good team and good idea of working in different topics..

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