I do not have the background or knowledge either to venture into the Vaishnavite/Saivaite discussion here or to reopen the same now. Last week, I purchased 'Tirumalai tirudan' (Divakar) and 'Ramanujar' (Drama by Indira Parthasarathy). I think there are enough discussions on 'Tirumalai tirudan' but had a few questions on the drama by I.Pa. The drama is writted purely from the social/reformist perspective and identifies Ramanujar as one of the great reformer of that era in so much as opening up the Vaishnava temples for people of all castes and bringing the untouchables into the vaishnava fold. Here are my questions. 1. How much of it is historically true? 2. Before the reformist/dravidian movements of last century, were the vaishnava temples open to all castes? This sounded kind of unbelievable as I was under the impression that this is not the case. But if it is not, is there any historical authenticity to the fact that Ramanujar opened the temples for all castes? Why/when was it discontinued? 3.The character 'Naaluran' occurs in both the drama and the novel. Is he a historical character? Is there any evidence that he was the persecutor of Koorathazhwan? 4. There were references to Ramanujar bringing the untouchables/panchamars of the Melkottai into the vaishnava fold. Where is this Melkottai? Is this the case even today?
Moderators, very obviously this is off-topic. But have raised the questions anyway. Please feel free to delete the same, if found contraversial.
Indeed whatever you heard/read about Ramanuja opening the temple for all the "Thirukkulathar" (Yes, that is what he termed them as... as belonging to the Divine Family, to give them the morale boost for all the sufferings they underwent) is very true and is history. Almost all the historians who had done a research on Ramanuja's life history has confirmed this.
Looks very rosy. But Ramanuja had to struggle a lot against a very dominant Brahmin society to get this done. Though in his mind, he was always wanting to do this much earlier, he could not achieve this until the Thirukkulathars played a major role in bringing back "Selvapillai" to Melkote from the clutches of a Delhi Sultan ruler. He waited till this incident and then using this help from then as a pretext to silence/convince (yes, "silence" the perennial trouble makers and "convince" the neutrals) the opposing Brahmins to allow the Thirukkulathars into the temple.
The fact that Ramanuja was always thinking of this is clearly visible from the Thirukkoshtiyur episode, where he gets the Mantra Upadesam of Thirumanthiram (Om Namo Narayanaya) from Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi, who in turn cautions Ramanuja that this has to be kept a secret, and passed only to another "able" successor (the qualification for "able" was not the caste, though) as otherwise Ramanuja would go to hell. But Ramanuja broke the promise and climbed up the Gopuram of Thirukkoshtiyur temple and called all the interested people, irrespective of their caste or gender, and gave the Thirumanthira Upadesam to all. This is glorified by Manavala Mamunigal in his work "upadEsa ratna mAlai" where he says...
The lines are very informative. "varambu aRuthAr" denotes that he broke a lineage which was maintaining the secrecy for this Manthram and for who did he do it? "pArulagil Aasai udaiyOrgaLukkellAm"!!
This infuriated Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi and he summoned Ramanuja and asked him as to why he chose to put down the caution as he would now definitely go to hell. For which, Ramanuja, very calmly with all humility, said "swAmin, if I were to go to hell for this reason I am ready for it. But all the other souls in the world who heard this will definitely get mOksha, right?". Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi was immensely moved and realised the great soul in Ramanuja and embraced him and said "em perumAnAr neer", meaning you are my God! What an Emperumanar. And to crown all these, it is said that Ranganatha, being pleased immensely with the social reforms and religious reforms of Emperumanar, termed the entire Srivaishnava sampradhayam as "Emperumanar Darisanam", meaning the "path"(Darisanam) shown by Emperumanar.
This act itself invited some angst from some of the racially inclined Brahmins (I know that this is a very strong term, but the facts are always strange and even undigestable), but was able to contain them with his ever growing popularity and clout. One great example of using the popularity or clout, exclusively for constructive purposes.
After this, with the Selvapillai episode, he finally managed to get all the Thirukkulathars into the temple. He also included all the castes into the Srirangam temple, and also gave certain duties to everyone. "Thennarangar selvam muRRum thiruthi vaitthAn vAzhiyE". This is how Ramanuja's glory is sung every day by the Srivaishnavites in the temple.
I know that I wrote more about Ramanuja, than about the Nachiyar Koil. Let me come to that now. I dont know much about this temple as I had never visited this. But the Perumal of this temple is said to have done the "Panchasamskaram" (Sangu Chakram Impressions)or the "dIkshai" for Thirumangai Azhwar. One can see even today, the Moolavar having the Sangu Chakra moulds (not the one that every Perumal has)in his hands.
Regarding Thirumangai Azhwar date being later to that of Nammazhwar, it seems that KAN Sastri differs in this view. He holds both to be contemporaries, though neither makes a reference to others, directly, in their works. I am trying to get this article, but am not able to get it.
For the records I only until the Nammazhwar being a Bee, part as indicated by SPS on this Divya Desam. I dont know about the other legends. Will get back to you soon on them.
: > > NACHIARKOIL is located at about 3 Kms south from Oppilaiappankoil > (Kumbakonam).. Kalgarudan located here is famous.. (pls ref > Archives). > Thaayar is prominent.. next to her Srinivasan. Balaraman, > Anirudhran - Purushothaman are also in the sanctum - apart from > Brahma.. > who is Anirudhran. somebody important in vaishnavaite mythology?
Vasudev, Sankarshan, Pradyumna and Aniruddha together were the four parts of the doctrine. Here Vasudev is The Supreme God and the Creator of the universe. At the beginning of the kalpa (period of time) when Lord Vasudev creates an universe along with the unmanifest basic Great Illusion (Prakruti), He also creates Sankarshan, a particular embodied soul. The mind manifests through the union of Sankarshan and the Great Illusion. The mind itself is Pradyumna. It is from Pradyumna that elements and their components.
See friends when we are searching for a news we are landing in other deatails which is natural.
When we are searching History we should be away from religion and caste. Thats what i feel.
The news I mentioned is available from REV. Henry Heras, Studies in Indian History (The Araidu Dynasty of Vijaya nagara) Vol 1; P.G.Paul Publications, Madras 1927. Foot Note Page No 533.
Dear sirYes,Ramnujar was a Saivaite by birth.His wife was Gandhimathi.She hated Thiru kachchi Nambihal,a staunch vaishnavite and Ramanuja got irritated and drove her out of his house.His first guru ,Yadava Prakasar was also a saivaite.As per Aalavandar's will ,Periya Nambihal,brought him to Sri Rangam converted him to Srivaishnavism.Thirukoshtiyur Nambihal refused him to accept him as his desciple since he has his own doubts about Ramanujar's origin.His Siththi's(his mother's younger sister) son,Govindan, was serving in the Sri,Kalahasti sivan temple.Ramanujar also converted him.He gave him the title Embar.There are so many evidence to prove that Ramanujar was from a staunch saivaite family.For your information Ramnujar's prathama guru Periya Namihal Thirvarisle(samadhi) is in Pasupathikoil,very near Thanjavur.(Pullamangai is also here) Sri Perumal bestowed upon me the task to discover that holy place.N.S
This is a healthy topic you should allow free knowledge exchange within group members, not to say who or which among us is great or small.
Sri Ramanuja is one of the greatest Hindu philosophers who propagated 'Visishtadvita' principle as we all know. He belonged to a generation where distinction of Saivaism and Vaishnavaism was not made onlyby birth. He was born in a smartha Brahmin family that believed in both Shiva and Vishnu worship,and a'advaitin' based on the principles propagated by Adi Shankara. Ramanuja's philosophy distinguished the self from supreme and accepted Shri Vishnu as the 'param porul', a different approach to salvation from the theory advocated by Adi Shankara who believed self and supreme are the same.
To say Ramanuja was a Shaivite is to say Siddhartha Gautama Buddha, Guru Nanak or Mahavir were Hindus first and Jesus was a Jew. He was a pioneer and a renaissance Hindu philosopher who is a pride of our culture and civilization. For those who believe in his teachings he is a supreme Guru.
"" Ramanuja was a Buddhist, and he converted to Hinduism. His real name was Ethirajan, meaning ettu+rajan; that is to say he was a protagonist of the eight fold tenets of Buddism. ""
view of another member - adding rightly we are SEARCHING History ::
" ...Which read Ramanujar was studying in Sankar Matt in Kanchi and that he assisted Sankarachariar in taking a oil bath... "
here is a source :: REV. Henry Heras, Studies in Indian History (The Araidu Dynasty of Vijaya nagara) Vol 1; P.G.Paul Publications, Madras 1927. Foot Note Page No 533."
SPS MAILED ::
very nice. definitely we can educate ourselves through such a source. will try to look for this book also.
Now dear TM Sundaram Sir,
U mailed ::
" This is a healthy topic you should allow free knowledge exchange within group members, not to say who or which among us is great or small... "
Where comes the need for this observation ?
When my view is put as that of a Moderator - definitely there is collective view inherent in that - kindly take it for granted. not individual view.
That accounted for seeking SOURCE for a statment involving - Sri Ramanuja is one of the greatest Hindu philosophers who propagated 'Visishtadvita' principle as we all know and WE ALL AGREE TOO.
When a Source Surfaced I mailed :
" definitely we can educate ourselves through such a source. will try to look for this book also. "
The reference and source what you gaveitself need relaiable source. Kindly note that except few neutrals, most of the preachers landed from Europen settlers, have not shown keen interest in research when they publish details about Indians, particularly about south indian history.
Ramanuja did not have any enemy during his lifetime (His earlier Guru, who tried to kill Ramanujaduring his younger daystudies, hehimself turned as Sishya in later times). Even any enemy wasthere, he would have not dared to think that Ramanuja was Bhuddist for some time. Before writing some details like this, I would request you to give deep research, before bringing such details to this forum, especially on Ramanuja's matter.
Your role as a moderator to balance views is well appreciated. I was afraid free discussions would be curtailed based on your initial specific remark that " WITHOUT SOURCE THIS AND RELATED MESSAGES WILL BE DELETED." But you redeemed that stand in in your response to the follow up mails from our learned members.
I thoroughly enjoy members views and yours /others comments.
If you go throgh the records, the Ephigraphist in 1904, stated that good number of inscriptions were broken and thrown in to temple tanks and burried under the house foundations. The Senior ephigraphists says this was done in Tripathy. That too when they knew very well that the government is looking for and wish to preserve those inscriptions. Further there are many quotes about this. If you go to ASI library in Chennai, read the inscriptions reports submitted by our own people you will realize.
In vedas there is no mention about religions and it educates about science and astronomy.
My PhD thesis is compleated and to be submitted in Jan 2010., on Vedas in which I had a broad view on Vedas and mentions how the gods were createted and how the yenthras were formed.
This I did in Govt OML at chennai and it took nearly 15 years.
If time permits after awarded PhD I may post it to you may be in Aug 2010.
Mr.Ramachandran If you make a statement on history, stand on it and furnish your references and try to get others opinions. Divakar Sir has asked you to furnish reliable source of referneces. Instead you have stated that inscriptions were thrown in tanks, and vedas has no religons, and about your phd. thesis. Whatis the connection with the statement 'Ramanujar was a buddist'? The reference you have mentioned about was Henry Heras. He was a catholic priest sent to India as a teacher in Xavier School Bombay. He came to India in 1922 and written 3 books within 4 years while doing his teaching profession. He would have never knewabout the souther indian history and culture or religonwas. He was the man who encouraged and started a school for christian artists to convert the religious symbols and idols of hindus to express christian themes. Dont you understand what his intention was? He was a preacher and wanted to demolish all religions except christianity. He was againt our Vedas in which you are doing your Phd also. You have said thatyour work for a thesis has taken 15 years. Then within 4 years how far that Henry would have made his research and written books. He was supported by the British at that time and they made him a important man for the sake of spreading christianity. If you believe on Vedas and not on Gods and Religons, keep it with you. Do not write anything which may hurt others feelings. This is a group for history, particularly Chola history and not a group for Vedas and religons. You can make your statements in vedic and religous groups and get good answers. And if you want to know about Ramanujar I can write all the details from his birth to the end. Vishwaksenan
Dear Mr.Ramachandran I once again remind the words of Mr.Vishwa................ "If you believe on Vedas and not on Gods and Religons, keep it with you. Do not write anything which may hurt others feelings. This is a group for history, particularly Chola history and not a group for Vedas and religons. You can make your statements in vedic and religous groups and get good answers."