when pilgrims go around mount kailash they are asked to see the hill at sunrise. the shape of kailash in that angle is like a cross section of chidambaram por sabhai. they both look exactly similar. must have given the idea to somebody for shape and materiel perhaps the poet sang about the dawn view of big temple
but frankly i was shocked when some people who studied chola history for a longer time than us, suggested that karuvur thevar had nothing whatsoever to do with this temple.
kauvur thevar has sung about raja rajeshwaram, thirulokki, gkc all with contemprory chola history.most of these temples also lost eminence with the decline of the cholas. so karuvur thevar must be after raja raja and before the later pandyas. most possibly durring rrc and rjc's time.
and as far as i know karuvur thevars songs were included in thirumurai quite some time before the kalvettus were studied.
I found one of the greatest sources of tamil history- the thirumurai was being challenged.
this further disillusioned me along with other bomb shells they dropped.
frankly I had a distinct feeling that sensationalism has crept in where historians want to shock the new learner with stunning revelations.
I think that would only be counter productive and drive away new aspirants.
> but frankly i was shocked when some people who studied chola > history for a longer time than us, suggested that karuvur thevar > had nothing whatsoever to do with this temple. kauvur thevar has > sung about raja rajeshwaram, thirulokki, gkc all with contemprory > chola history. most of these temples also lost eminence with the > decline of the cholas. so karuvur thevar must be after raja raja > and before the later pandyas. most possibly durring rrc and > rjc's time.
Karuvur thevar has sung about Thirubuvanam temple also (hymns 144 - 151). How is it possible if he lived during RRC and RJC's time? The karuvuuraar sannidhi in Rajarajeswaram was constructed in later period as per the architectural features. If he lived when RRC built the temple and played an important role, his name should have been mentioned atleast in one inscription. Why is his name not found anywhere?
> He might have given the Golden effect to the temple roof top - > Gold powerders SPRAYED with Stucko - allowing the Vimanam to > be called PORGIRI ! Above this the Kalasam alone Gold plated.
If the gold powder is mixed with stucko, is it possible to separate them afterwards? More over, if RRC wanted to put stucko all over the vimaanam, why should there be the beautiful sculptures, highly ornamanted haara structures and kailaayak kaatchi? Then what is the difference between nayak kings who put stucko without appreciating the beauty of the sculptures in the vimaanam and RRC?
> 3. inscriptional evidence that Tiruvarur temple was Gold topped
Can you quote the ARE or SII volume and reference numbers? If it was found by Kudavoil, please get the text from him.
> Above objections obvioulsy come into the minds of the Scholars as > well whenever they put forward such postulate. We have seen STUCKO > on the outer surfaces of Vimanam. May be this has the answer.
Do you mean the stucko were put in order to cover the clip / clamp markings? If so, there are no such marks found in the sculptures from which the stucko were removed. Why?
> 1. In Thakkayagaparani, the Chidambaram temple top is glittering > with Gold as was Rajarajeswaram - says Ottakkootthar - NOT > vice-versa!. I specifically mentioned twice recently that it was > the daughter of Kulothunga who contributed for putting gold for > Thillai Nataraja Moolasthanam. Ottakkoothar is not talking of > Parantaka I's golden roofing. He is talking of this event in the > 11th Century. Even during the time of Monarchy, inspite of being > under continuous rule of Chozhas, Thillai Nataraja temple golden > roof needed replacement for some reason or other. Essence is that > The Gold roof is PRONE FOR REPLACEMENT in about 3 Centuries.
The golden roof in Chidambaram is not for the vimaanam. The roof of one of the mandapam is having golden plates. So, it is not necessarily be the same mandapam which was golden plated by Parantaka I. Ottakkuthar lived during Rajaraja II (1146-1163 - 12th century). He sang moovarula about Vikrama chozhan, Kulothunga II and Rajaraja II.
> 2. KARUVUR PURANAM :: RAJARAJESWARAM was glittering like PORGIRI !
Karuvur puranam is nothing but the thala puranam of a temple in present day karur written sometimes in 18th century. It has nothing to do with the karuvur thevar who sang thiruvisaippa. So, it cannot be a supporting evidence for Rajarajeswaram.
> Also, during recent renovation works, ASI has found about 5 > inscriptions involving grant of about 235 Kazhanju gold. We > may have to unearth for more details!
What for this 235 kazhanju gold were used? Any details? Also please mention the location of these inscriptions.
And still Ram's question about nAnkAm vERRumai urubu is unanswered!
dear kamal the thala varalaaru of thirupoovanam on madurai- ramnad road says positively that karuvur thevar sang about this temple only
thiru bhuvanam is not a thevara thalam but poovanam is a paandi 14 sthalam poovanam is sung by all three and also has a thiruvilayadal here when the three visited the place the river sand appeared as lingams and they refused to cross the river
so just like for nandanar the nandi moved
kulasekara pandiyan crowned himself here witha crown of rice sheaves
there is a good chance for karuvur thevar as a sidhar to sing about this for the temple has links with liberation of sould. the temple is important for last rites
in karuvur thevars song
the place is mentioned a poovanam only. not puvanam.
THIRUVISAPPA :: BIG TEMPLE :: 1. Ulagelan .. 2. Netriyil kann en kanninintragala .. 3. Sadaikezhu magudam .. 4. Vaazhiyam bothatharugu .. 5. Evarumma maraigal .. 6. Arulumaru aruli .. 7. Thaniperundhame .. 8. Pannedungalam paniseydhu .. 9. malgul soozh podhinozhi vara .. 10. Thaniyarethanaiyo .. 11. Sarala Mandara Sanbaga Varula Santhana nandhana Vanathin Irulviri Mozhuppuninji soozh thanjai Irasarasechrathivarai Arulmaruntharunthi all theer KARUVURA RARAINTHA son Malaiyeerainthin Porunn marunthudayor SIVA PATHAMENNUM P O N N E D U N K U N D R U D A Y A A R E !
Still we want to be humble .. let us be ..
This does not evidently belong to the 18th Century !
just imagine a religious man like karuvurar who due to his thava valimai or better living habits, lives for a long time- say during the reign of 2 or 3 kings- especially when history is happening, then he gets into the legend as an immortal( sidhar status) i presume karuvurar was like that. perhaps the legend of karuvurar fixing the lingam with his spittle could be a legend too.
but just the abscence of a kalvettu on karuvurar does not disprove anything. he must have lived in the period because a few years after its construction tanjore was losing its importance. it was no longer the major temple a few years after construction. and karuvurar has sung a lot about the new temples of his time without bothering about their antiquity. temple kalvettus are mainly about administration and info must be gleaned from them . I dont think the chola kings wanted to (intentionally) record much here. they must have done it in their palace walls and the palaces got destroyed.
in tanjore trip most of us saw theories by experts who have read the kalvettu at big temple all their lives being debunked with ease by those who have taken this as a hobby a year or two back. I frankly beleive the importance of temple kalvettus as the ultimate source of info is being stressed on wrongly. there are other sources of info too equivalently important or more
I am no expert in these ! But still, a thought crossed my mind. Have you heard of Variyar of Kottakkal?? The whole generation of Variyars are called that. It is a surname and it stands for Doctor.
Similarly, a few people from consecutive generations, who excelled in poetry, and are devoted to Siva, hailing from a family may be Karuvurar....
Only in Jatayu time, people, animals, birds are supposed to have lived beyond 200 years plus.
Just now spoke to Dr. Kudavoil, expressing the doubts raised on the subject. Summary :
Re lack of elaborate inscriptional support, he concurres it should have been recorded more elaborately. We are yet to find.
Pon Meyvithan - is a process which is much discussed related to some tradition.
Not only Tiruvarur with 26600 Kazhanju, but also TIVUEEZHI MIZHALAI with 100000 (One lakh) kazhanju PURE GOLD was plated - . There are inscriptional supports.
It was not Gold Powedering or anything. Clear gold plating as Tirupathi Temple - with Gold rakes / foils.
Too glad to take us around and show the inscriptions at Tiruvarur and Thiruveezhimizhalai also !
Re Mahudagamam, tho" there is no Tamil version is avl, Sanskrit version is available with scholars.
With this I wind up and look forward to visit Tiruvarur and Tiruveezhimizhalai.
dear all i just read the urai for karuvur thevars raja rajeshwaram temple thiruvisapa
he describes the town in its glory. the man was impressed with the cloud high fort walls of thanjai he talks about armed men on the walls he talks about noisy roads ( like the sea he says)and royal elephants on them he talks about the crocodiles in vadavaru which serves as the moat
he also talks about kings ( with venkotra kudais)crowding this town and in their jostling for space their crowns hit each other and the gems drop down forming small mounds of gems on the floor
he talks of insence smoke and yaal music
in short he is talking about a vibrant town. a town full of prosperity and life
he must there fore have seen this town in the times of rrc for soon after rrc the focus shifted elsewhere.
Dear Sps both are very important temples in saivam
TIVUEEZHI MIZHALAI where god gave a daily dole of a gold coin to appar and sambanthar
Tiruvarur
the chola's second favorite temple after chidambaram.
3 devara sthalams in one town. two within the same compound and one outside at the theradi. the theradi temple is named after sundarars wife paravai mandali.
sundarars maamanaar house. and how does he describe it.
to all those born in thiruvarur i am a slave.
says gods best friend.
very close to thiruvarur is kiil velur - a replica of big temple.
karuvur thevar need not have been immortal or have a long innings
what is the time difference between the consecrations of big temple and gkc?
25 years. must even be slightly lesser.but 25 years is a long time in those days.
my postulate is that he was present during both.
i am not claiming he was the guru or mentor of rrc.
i hope somebody like swetha can translate the karuvurars hymn in english and put it on the group. then members cen decide if his vision is contemprory or not.
The Shwedagon Paya is a 98 meter gilded stupa located in Yangon, Myanmar. The Paya is west of the Royal Lake on Singuttara Hill. The Shwedagon Paya is the most sacred Buddhist site for the Burmese with several Buddha relics. Legend has it that the Shwedagon Paya is 2500 years old. Archeologists believe the stupa was actually built sometime between the 6th and 10th centuries
The stupa was rebuilt several times and reached it's current height of 98 meters in the 15th century.
The base of the stupa is made of bricks covered with gold plates. Above the base are terraces that only monks can access. Next is the bell-shaped part of the stupa. Above that is the lotus and then the crown. The crown or umbrella is tipped with 5,448 diamonds and 2,317 rubies. The very top is tipped with a 76-carat diamond.