Dear Members, Yesterday I had a chance to visit to Thiruchenkattangudi, the native of Paranjothi and visited the temple and the great Vathapy Ganapathy. The photos are uploaded in our photos album. Kind regards, Kannan.R.
interestingly he mentions of another ganapathy brought back as a war trophy
"Incidentally, RAjEndra ChOlza himself did bring a statue of Ganesa from the shores of the Ganges River. It is in Gangai Konda ChOlzaPuram and the Ganesa is appropriately called "Gangai VinAyagar". (Actually his C-in-C did it. Rajendra was in Chidhambaram building a new capital city). "
A few years back Mr. M. Karunanidhi hadmade a statement that Vathapy Ganapathy was the first Ganesha idol to be installed in Tamil Nadu. He said that the song "Vathapy Ganapathy" was in honour of the same lord installed in Thiruchenkattangudi.Thiscreated an uproar and he was criticized.People like Jayendra Saraswathi said that Lord Ganesh had killed a demon called Vathapy and the song was in praise of this incident. But if we notice there is no mention of Lord Ganesha in any of our early Tamil literature.Even I had heard that there is no mention of Ganesha in Thevaaram also. It would be great if anyone can share some related information onthe missing Lord Ganesha in Tamil literature.
Pillayapatti is a puzzle. Stylistically the cave is assigned to 3rd ce, but not sure how they arrived at it. Its also assigned tp pandyas, again not sure how.
Thumb rule, if cave has linga which is cut into bed rock: its pandya. If linga is placed ( diff stone) is pallava. Of course somaskanda panel at the back is additional proof for pallava.
I have heard that this concept of bringing Ganesha from far away kingdoms and installing them to make the country flourish, made way for 'vinayagar thiruttu' of recent times :-)
It is supposed to have started from Vatapi Vinayagar.
Interestingly, we find most of these carvings in Thiru Paran Kundram rock cut temple.The Linga stand alone with a background of Soma skanda ,standing Durga, standing Perumal (against a sayana perumal of Chendur), Ganesha etc. Inner building has a different vahana placement against outer vahana placement. Very unique temple for visitors interested in looking.
Many unique carvings can be found there (including the Shiva in a Varaha roopam).
I was more fascinated by the way Somaskanda was present in his own marriage :-) Revolutionary.. and makes way to the thought of Muruka avataram or thiru vilayadal at various times.
Also, temple's get rebuilt / re-constructed as kings/rulers change, for example Susindram temple, inner boundary is authentic (marked by the placement of Bhairava and outer boundary was constructed at a later stage and the carvings are different (larger in fact).
Pathu Pattu and Ettuthogai will be the answer. Thirumurugattupadai is the first one to talk about muruga. Dating each of these should be done scientifically, but we always proceed on an assumption. For instance, Tamil was not used in administration during the Pallava time. This will meet your querry. R Narasimhan
Thirumurugatrupadai is considered to be the last work of Sangam (usually not attributed to same age as other works - other works which are classified as Late classical are Kalithokai,Paripatal.)
Earliest references of Muruga can be found in Akam and Puram. Though no mention of Deivanai in any of early Sangam works.
And about Ganesh worship in Early Tamil nadu, I have never come across any reference about Ganesha.
Though one can references of Ramaayana,Mahabaratha,Parasurama,krishan,Balarama,Arundati,Vishnu,Shiva,Lakshmi,Indra,Kubera,Muruga,Korravai,Valli.
Seeing all these reference I beg to differ from one member saying that "dates of worship of Ganesha are pushed to AD".. these reference just point out that in Tamil Nadu Ganesha as god was still not popular(or in the worst case was not worshiped as separate god)- this has nothing to do with his dates pushed beyond BC. Ganesha worship would surely have been prevalent in other parts of India and might surely predate Christianity. Any body who read Sangam literature would understand that the religious practices of early Tamilians were totally different from what we are practicing today. There has been slow and steady changes with each century and major change coming in during the Bakthi movement. So to take Tamil Nadu as case study and tell statement about Ganesha worship doesn't hold good.
One other fact to be considered here is Sangam literature Muruga had a pinimuga vaganam - meaning elephant as his vahana. Elephant as Muruga's vahana was more prevalent that peacock as his vahana in Sangam. Logically if u look into it, it was like Nadhi to Shiva- Garuda to Vishnu. Having Garuda people didn't need one more eagle god. Having Nandhi people didn't need one more bull god. Similarly we have to consider a case where elephant had some spiritual significance due to Muruga. This is totally my suggestion with no valid proof or reference - but should surely be looked into.
Also read in one of the books till 9th century there was no statue of Murugan with Valli and Deivanai. IF at all a sculpture was found before that period it always had Muruga alone in Tamil Nadu. Hope VJ can thow more light on it!
Indra, Varuna, Vishnu, Muruga and Durga as the main gods of Aindinai.
Shiva F/O Muruga was the head of first Tamil Sangam.
Hetested Nakkeerar. ( This is not just story, Appar sings about " Dharumikki Porkizhi allitha- in Tiruppattur thevaram.)
In sangam Litrature there is a mention of the " panguni Uttiram" Festival at srirangam.
Use simple logic. if a=b & b=c then a=c.
Vedas and velvis referred in Sangam. Then vedic godswere also there in sangam. Palyagasalai Peruvazhudi ( who performed many yagams) is of 6th century BC
Then all vedic gods were worshipped in tamilnadu in those ages.
As some body said, if books are lost at let the logic and reasoning be there
According to me, the two Kailasanatha temples (one is now called Ekambareswarar temple) were pre-mahabalipuram..they were sanstone structures. Mahamalai was an experimental station for sculpting on granite...yes, the Pallavas succeeded to sculpt the seven pagodas in granite inMahamali. The Kailasanatha temples were actually models. You can visit Kailasanatha temple and compare with the Mahamalai experiments.
If you see reason that Indo-Aryans wanted an identity for themselves, then you will not question the creation of Gana Pathy or Viswa Nayaka. It is logical..sun worship yielded place to Ganapathy worship. And Dravidians followed suit increating Muruga, another representation of the sun.And again, Nataraja and Ayyappa were other formats of sun worship.
I would want to write more but its too too basic or rather elementary to even argue with your wild hypothesis. You got to know how to crawl before you start running. There are volumes and volumes of high quality works published on these marvels - tracking the evolution of these structures architecturally , epigraphical studies etc etc. I would request you to study them and try to reason out your stand rather than shooting off such preposterous statements without proper substantiation.
I am amazed that you reject an argument just like that. Earlier statements were surmises and assumptions based on the background and knowledge of the persons. Research is based on logic. I have been studying for years and I am still a student. I question everything. Mere cussedness will not be a substitute for logical arguments. For instance, why do you say that Indo-Aryans and Dravidians did not want an identity of their own? They did, and are still continuing the fight for identity. R. Narasimhan
Before we start, must clarify something to you - I am not an expert nor do i have any formal training /degree on this subject and hence am as much a student as you - however, i have spent considerable time on these - including building a collection of over 5000 + photos of mallai alone and another 3000+ of Kailasantha. I have read most of the published works on these two sites. I have featured much of my path of self discovery through my blog posts in poetryinstone. Me and family have been doing lot of silent service to Tamil language and art, which we dont publicise and i will leave it at it. So please do not habour any feeling of hidden agenda etc in your mails.
This is what you said:
" According to me, the two Kailasanatha temples (one is now called Ekambareswarar temple) were pre-mahabalipuram. .they were sanstone structures. Mahamalai was an experimental station for sculpting on granite...yes, the Pallavas succeeded to sculpt the seven pagodas in granite in Mahamali. The Kailasanatha temples were actually models. You can visit Kailasanatha temple and compare with the Mahamalai experiments."
Back to our core topic, to make it simpler - let me ask you a few pointed questions. again please do not go on rhetoric but take time to provide straight answers ( dont want any back questions on aryan / dravidan etc - to derail this discussion) - if you are ready to have such a mature discussion then, lets start
Can you comment on below based on your study
1) Period of Kanchi Kailasantha and three distinct phases of mallai ( caves, monoliths and structural temples)
2) Authorships ( even if disputed) of Kanchi Kailasantha, Mallai major monuments - so called 5 rathas, great penance, various caves, olakkaneshwara and shore temple
3) Inscriptions of the mallai monuments and Kanchi Kailasantha. Can you elaborate or give a short list.
4) Sculptural styles. Say for eg, please read the series - Evolution of the Somaskanda image on my blogsite. Maybe you can explain stylistic changes better.
1. Brahma, Vishnu, Sivan, Dakshinamoorti ( Alamar selvan) Parvathi on both forms Malaimagal and Kotravai ( Kotravai Kumara) , Thirumagal all are there. 2. Can any one confirm that the thani padals also belong to Nakkeerar. Then Ganapathi is there in the Thanipadal.
Friends, Isn't that Ganapati website given below, a treat? Photos of hundreds of Ganeshas all over India. I found it a couple of years ago and really enjoy referring to it. Kathie