Actually we had a long thread on this sometime ago...with Dr Sri pitching in to say hormone development that causes people to fall in love has been more or less similar over time.
The surest way to ascertain age for older stories is that...16 years for falling in love. Probably by early twenties married and kids. Women usually died of some form of illness by 50s. So 'elderly' woman such as Sembian Madevi is probably in her 40s. Don't have to look as far as PS our own grandparents or great grand parents will serve as examples.
Vairam, marriage is different from falling in love. Even my grandparents and their parents married around ages 8-12. My paternal grandmotehr was 7.5 years while she was 'married'.
Falling in love with another human is technically impossible before hormonal maturity. Nature has made it that way. Even if we consider certain food habit and customs and so an at best we can push it to 15, not earlier. If poets wrote 10-12 as the age they were just trying to engage is poetic exaggeration or somehow justify the norms of that time.
>> Even if we consider certain food habit and customs and so an at best we can push it to 15, not earlier.
I know people who have had their first kid at age of 14. Mostly my moms generation in my community got married off by the time they were 14-15. My grand mother generation probably 2 years lesser than that. These aren't child marriage. The girls would have attained their puberty by then.
In book "Home life among Tamils" the author goes on to say average age of the women attaining puberty in Tamil land is around 12-14.
Silapadikaram - 6th century mentions age of Kovalan Kannagi marraige age as 12&16 Nachinarkiniyar - 10th century -says correct marraige age for womenand menare 12&16. He also mentionsthat girls attain puberty by 12-13. Kasiappa Sivachariyar - 14 th century - says in his Kantha puranam that Valli was 12 whenshe fell in love with Murugan
Even if it seems like a poetic exaggeration... rite from 1AD to 14 AD it has been quoted women fall in love as early as 12 in Literature and Girls having childeren at 14 as late as 20 th century.. gives a very high probablity that there are lot of chances that the average age gals attain puberty in the old time was around 12 and the naiveness and ignorance of gals can lead upto love(these days we call infatuation ) ..
So logically these girls should been married by upper limit 14. If in 10th century norm was getting married at the age of 12 was present ,then no king would allow his daughter to cross that age and be single. Historical Kundhavai should have been married before or by 14.
So this is why had given age of the heroines as 12-14. I am not very sure about Kalki imagination but if Kundhavai was married in 10th century , she would got married before she was 14!
Lots of information Vairam!! I was talking of the hormone driven process of falling in love which is different from marraige and even having kids. My paternal grand mother was married at 8 and sent to husband's house at 13. She conceived first time at 14 much to the ire of the british doctors who treated her. Her daughter was married off at 12 and conceived at 13.
These things are not related to falling in love. A natural hormone driven process of being attracted to another person is logically after puberty with the right situation. Nowadays it is 16, perhaps considering age norms 14 is acceptable for 10th century. 10-12 seems very tough to accept.
ACtually Venkat i think all romances in PS are opportunistic. Manimekali, oru thalai kaadal/infatuation. Brother's friend, guy she saw since she was a kid..very believable.
AMV would not have dared to 'marry' Poonguzhali or even declare his romance to her. He was too scared of his sister. Ther is nothing said about Poonguzhali's ambition related to her marraige to Sendhan Amudhan..more believeable, she found out falling in love with kings and princes is not going to work out for a simple country girl and settled for another similar guy.
Kundavi and VD we know of course. VD wanted rich influential woman and she wanted to keep her life.
Nanum summa irundhiralamnnu paartha vida mateengreengale :)). I guess you have little outdated hormone theory !!! People could very fall in love from age of 11-12. That is today's seventh std. My friend who runs a school says that even at 6th std the romance issue starts. U may that is infatuation but in those days it may have become a step to love & marriage by the mere fact that the society was accepting marriages around that age. So AK with nandhini or Sivakami -NVP could have very well fallen in love.
In today's context the marriage age has move to 20+ and so you find love only from college as an understandable process. But just rewind yourself to ur grandparents' time and if someone had approached their parents that they have fallen in love and want to get married, I guess they would not have felt any major uproar (subject to their luv being from the same sect etc..) Infact kadhu kadhum vachha madhiri kalyanatha close panniiruppaargal.
But now in our times, if a 6th std student goes and says to his parents that he is love with maadi veettu kundavai, serruppu pingirum.
Nalla velai. unmai pala velivaramal I could complete this mail :))
>>considering age norms 14 is acceptable for 10th century. 10-12 seems very tough to accept.
Got messed up some where down the line. My estimate was 12-14 (considering puberty by 12 - good two years to develop love and 14 being upper limit for marriage deadline!)
10-12 was hero falling in love with the girl in Sangam poems. These girls show some physical characteristics of a women but still not yet women..but heroes fall for the girls...
This I found bit awkward to accept...but I came across similar story line in "One hundred years of Solitude" where Colonel Aureliano Buendía falls in love with a girl. His parents talk with the gals parents for marriage, then only they come to know that the girl hasn't yet attained puberty. So this guy waits till she attains puberty and then marries her. This story is set in mid 19th -20 th century in Mexico. So guy falling in love with gal who is yet to become a women seems to have been happening all over the world!!!
Another thought... recent movie pasanga ...looks like the kids actually move out like lovers and the villan kid envying them... considering they are in only 5th-6th std kids (10-12 years old).. though we can term them as kid love(surely not hormone driven) there seems to be a liking involved. Transporting this to very early time...there were no schools or even avenues where boys and girls can meet.... So when the girl meets a guy for first time accidentally (as iyarkai punarchi situations)when she has attained the age of developing the kiddish love and coupling with Tamil cinematic sentiments the love comes only once , you should live with him or die for him(even in ps Manimekalai )....we can expect early age of a gal falling in love(but this love is technically not the scientific hormone driven love - probably more of a liking - infatuation).
Logically and historical point of view the girls in tenth century were in position to fall in love anywhere between 12-14 and would have been married by 14.
This is my perspective. But the maturity in Kundhavai, Nandhini ,and all these people makes me feel they must have been atleast 16-18 if not more. This probably because of looking into history from current prespective.Probably Kalki wrote the characters with more mature mind like that of 20 th century girls who are in age of marriage.But girls in marriage age in 10th century were very young age!
Hi Ganesh, 6th class love ellaam dumb stuff inspired by movies and low self esteem...usually kids who are raised in healthy families do not 'fall in love' at that age..In fact more than half the kids you are talking are also 'in love' with Hrithik Roshan and Shahrukh Khan.
I want to tell you a real story - this actually hapened when I was in 7th grade myself. One of my classmates confessed to us that she was madly in love with Rajinikant who was a rising star at that time. We were alarmed and wanted to tell the teacher but before that she had taken a train to chennai with someone and actaully landed at Rajini's doorstep asking him to marry her. Rajini counselled her that he acts in movies and she should be paying attention to her studies at this age. She came back and at 10th grade her parents married her off to someone as they thought she will run away again. This is a 100% true story.
Falling in love atleast as depicted by Kalki looks like a conscious mature attraction experienced by the people involved. Not childish crushes that come and go.
VAiram, yes very well said!! There are lot of stories both real and ficiton of kids growing up together and the fondness maturing into love. My father's brother married his niece after they fell in love, he was 21 and she was 18 and they had grown up together in the same house.Singer SP Bala talked of how he married same way, girl opposite house he had seen several years since young age and when they grew up they knew they were meant for each other. But among strangers this is very unlikely...
Yes as you say kalki has induced maturity into characters that may not have really existed. In fact one of my relatives who was a historian once read to us about Krishnadevaraya and how his wives were treated. Every day one of the women would know it is their turn and go to his mansion. End of story, that was all their married life was about - my uncle said almost all kings were like that, there was no eloquent dialoging or discussions with women involved.
Today's times are different, even very different than ours considering the media exposure children have. Teachers complaining of 'romance' before 6th grade...ought to talk to school/parents of healthy sex education and teaching children of what is appropriate at what age. Assumign all these issues will just go away or taking their crushes seriously is dangerous to say the least.
Aditha Karikalan was 12 when he cut off Veerapandyan's head and before that may be when he was 10 or 11, he was in 'Love' with Nandhini who must be arnd the same age or older than AK.
I guess the PS story starts off may be 8 yrears after these events (???) Coz i think somewhere it is mentioned that AK was 20 during the events of PS and when he died (need to refer this again) .
So if this is right, Nandhini would be arnd 20, Kundhavai and little younger, maybe 16 or 17.
Well this is my guess and this is how i imagined the age of these characters while reading PS.
as per ps, below exchange malaiyaman says he was not even 16 during chevvur battle. However, as per plot, Veerapandian was not decapitated in the chevvur battle but sometime post that.
958 Sundara chola crowned 959 Chevur battle - against pandya/srilanka army 964 RJC birth 969 AK assasination 970 UC crowned 973 Sundara chola demise 985 RRC crowned ( shares throne with UC) 987 UC demise/dethroned 993 RRC Srilanka campaign 994 RRC kerela /chera campaign ???? Maldives campaign 999 RRC conquest of Gangapadi and Nurambapadi ( karnataka) Gangas 999 RRC vengi conquest eastern chalukya 1001 Sembian Madevi Demise 1003 Rattapadi conquest - chalukya 1007 RJC northern battles ( chalukya ) - hottur inscription 1008 Udagai battle RJC, RRC - against cheras 1010 Big temple completed 1012 RJC appointed co regent 1014 RJC crowned, Demise of RRC?? 1015 First chola ambassador reaches china 1016 demise of RRC?? 1017 first RJC mention in the Tanjore temple ( inscription) 1018 Rajadiraja appointed co regent, RJC srilanka campaign, RJC marches through pandya and chera country 1019 RJC Ganges Campaign 1020 Inscription in tanjore temple of RJC - bringing back the diadem ( pandya) 1021 RJC western chalukyan campaign 1025 srivijaya, kadaram, sumatra, malaysia naval campaign 1031-35 RJC western chalukyan campaign and battle of vengi/Kalidandi 1033 Second ambassador reaches china, last addition to list of conquests in inscriptions Inscription also reads he issued it from GKC 1035 GKC temple completed 1044 RJC demise 1054 Demise of Rajadhiraja 1077 Third ambassador reaches china
> Btw, on the marriage age of kundavai, kakli did leave a foot note: > that she and vt got married after lot more troubles. So...
Probably to develop the story , is there any record on her marriage?
That would Put Kundhavi nearly 20,21 when she was married. Thats like getting married at 30-35 in present times - too late!!!...Probably Kundhavai was like sister in Tamil cinema who brings up her young brother and doesn't marry till very late time to bring up her brother!!!!
//Approximate estimate at time of AK's death according to PS Time line - Nandhini - 17 or lesser Kundhavai - 15 or lesser Poongulazhli - 15 or lesser Vanathi, Manimekalai - 12-14 or lesser (bcos of the innocence and Kunthavai being elder to them)
Approx age when they fell in love Nandhini - 7-10 Kundhavai - 14-15 or lesser poongulazhi also around same time Vanathi and Manimekalai - 12-14 or lesser//
Reasonable estimates. But how you got Poongkuzali's age? I am curious.
Please do not mix fact with fiction. Kalki wanted to portray all his Kings as ideal men. The Mandakini episode was entirely Sri Kalki's fiction and inorder to inlay that into Sundara's ascension, there are some glaring holes in the timeline.
Similar too is RRC marrying Vananthi - PS timeline n narration is very diff from fact.
Yes, Thats true. As per the novel PS Arulmozhi varman not married Vanathi till the end of story, but Athitha Karikalan was assasinated before this, am I right. And also if Mandhakini was a fiction why Raja Raja Chozhan built a temple for her. I think The temple is called "Chingachiyar Koil" or Singala Naachiyaar Koil, is located some miles from Tanjore.
Can you check in which SII volume is this inscription, as i cant quite make out from this following passage from the site means - does it mean she gave donations on RRC's 50th birthday!!! we know it cant be his regnal year - since his rule is 29 years from 985.
Dear Natarajan I beg to differ regarding the age of Kalkis charectors...
Karikalan went to Sevur at 12 and The Final Pandya war was when he was around 16 or 17.. That means Kundavai and Nandhini were15 or 16
The story happens 3 years after that Making AK 20 Nandhini 19 Kundavai 19 and AK gets killed after a year vandiyadevan recollects a second pudhuvellam
So realistically AK must have been 21/22 Vandiyadevan 20/21 Kundavai/Nandhini?madhuranthakan and Senthan 20ish Arunmozhi 18/19 Poonguzhali Vanathi Manimegali 17-19
AK meets Nandhini when he is 12...he gets infactuated/falls in love when he is 16/17 so nandhini cannot be 9 Likewise the rest of the charectors...
Maniam and Vinus pictures mirror such developed women not kids unfortuntely
Sri
/Approximate estimate at time of AK's death according to PS Time line - Nandhini - 17 or lesser Kundhavai - 15 or lesser Poongulazhli - 15 or lesser Vanathi, Manimekalai - 12-14 or lesser (bcos of the innocence and Kunthavai being elder to them)
Approx age when they fell in love Nandhini - 7-10 Kundhavai - 14-15 or lesser poongulazhi also around same time Vanathi and Manimekalai - 12-14 or lesser//
Reasonable estimates. But how you got Poongkuzali' s age? I am curious.
Ref ur email : Karikalan went to Sevur at 12 and The Final Pandya war was when he was around 16 or 17..That means Kundavai and Nandhini were15 or 16
While I tend to agree with your timelines for AK, how are you assuming that Kundavai was 15/16 when VP was killed? Kalki does not mention the age gaps between the siblings, doe he ?
>>But one thing for sure is Kalki didnt have clear cut idea about the ages of his characters.
Not exactly. Kalki did err (???) as in many other instances.
mudal pagam - Puthu vellam - adyayam 14 - Arulmozhivarmar... AVM is introduced in PS for the first time...as he prepares to leave for Lanka war. when he meets Vanathi first (she faints - nadaga mayil :) )
"அருள்மொழிவர்மருக்கு அப்போது பிராயம் பத்தொன்பதுதான்." - ie. when he wished to go to Lanka war, Kalki says, he was just 19. And in next para says Kundavai is 2 years elder to him. so she is 21.
PS Story happens after a few months ( or a year later) after this incident. So by then AVM should be 20 and Kundavai 22.
AK, assuming 2 years elder to Kundavai should be 24.
So the heroins, as per kalki are in late teens or early 20's.