Food in Ponniyin Selvan
  • I have recently joined this group and I have been enjoying perceptive
    postings in this list. And of course, like many of you, have journeyed the
    midieval times with the help of Kalki...
    Have wondered how long the tamil food we love - idly, pongal, sambar,
    chutney, rasam etc. etc. - have been in existence? Specifically, have you
    seen instances of what food the folks were having in PS and similar historic
    novels? More generally, have you come across any interesting article/book on
    the subject of evolution of Tamil food?


    much regards,
    Srini.

    P.S: I remember some mentions of food by Valli and Ponnan in a conversation
    with Marthanda Bhoopathi in Parthiban Kanavu, that's about it.
  • Srini, coincidentally i read not one but two articles on food history in the recent past. I am posting links below. Contrary to what we think idli,dosa and rasam are not tamil dishes. They belong to Udupi/karnataka. I don't now about sambar exactly it might have originated from Puli kuzhambu in TN. The milky coffee we make in TN also has its origins in Udupi.

    PS mentions adai, kootanjoru among dishes eaten, as far as I know. There are more PS experts here. One point to remember that dishes were lot more difficult to make in those days than now when so much is automated.Also in those days people preferred to eat more filling meals since snacks and small eats were not frequent and physical labor intense. The coarsely ground adai is a very old dish and used to be made as a hand poured layer on the tava, not like dosa of modern times. I learnt his from the history of 'pesarattu' - the adai of Andhra.

    Here are two articles, enjoy.
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/ET_Cetera/Idli_saga_A_study_into_the_origin_of_the_South_Indian_dish/articleshow/1969178.cms

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/seta/2004/10/21/stories/2004102100111600.htm

    Malathi
  • -HI Srini
    check out the archives

    we had a detailed discussion once actively particapation from depa prakash a food scientist.
    it was she who raised the question ( after reading the english version) that how could kalki mention maize when it came into india 500 years after the PS story.

    finaly we discovered it was an error in translation. whereas kalki talks about cholam( a minor millet) the translator had put it as makka cholam ( maize)


    venketesh
  • Dear Venket Sir,

    Here I would like to highlight one info from PS. When VD was riding on a horse (Place I dont remember) he will sense the smells of food from the houses, here Kalki would describe all as "Vaasam / Manam" but when he said about non veg he would say "kari varukkum naatram". Have you noticed this?
  • Hi Satheesh,

    Natram also can be taken in the positive sense, as a delectable smell.

    Eg. Karpuram naarumo kamalapoo naarumo
  • In 'Parthiban Kanavu', Valli makes 'Kambu Adai' and 'Keerai Kuzhambu' for
    Ponnan.
    *
    என்றும் அன்புடன்,
    நிலாக்காலம்.*
  • Hi,

    Thats correct Mr. Mouli, but when he was telling all as "manam"
    continuosly but suddenly when he comes to nonveg he mentions as "naatram".
    So there he felt something different. Let me check and post the exact phrase
    from PS where it comes.
  • If I remember right VD is also expressed saying that naavil echil oorum due to the natram.
    There is also mention of pongal puliyodarai...
    Curious question,when did we 'invent' sambar?
  • Hi
    idiyappam by sendan amudans mother for vanthiyathevan

    but as many say kalki to cater to a largely orthodox readership avoids mention of heroes eating non veg.

    just imagine what a riot it would have been in 1952 if we had vanthiyathevan tackling a leg of mutton ( which in reality he would have as a warrior)


    perhaps a good analyst would tell as much about subscribers of kalki magazine in 1950s by dissecting ponniyn selvan chapters



    venketesh
  • Hi,
     
    The phrase that you had said comes In the 14th Chapter "Aatrangarai Mudhalai".
     
    "Aduppu pugaiyudan Nellai puzhukkum manamum, kambu varukkum manamum, Iraichi vadhakkum naattramum kalandhu vandhana. Akkalathil por veerargal perumbalum mamisapatchinigalagave irundhargal. Vallavarayanum appadithan. Enave andha manangal avanudaya naavil jalam oora seidhana".
     
  • VD must have missed his non veg food as he spent most of his time with
    Amudan and thirumalai who were staunch grass eaters; but AK and
    samburavaiyar clans who are keen hunters and might have eaten non veg.
    What about Poonguzhali - fish?

    I think, even recent historical novelists are silent on the food habits
    and have not explicitly stated that RR, VD, Kundavai and the lot ate non
    veg food.
    All over India, non veg food is discouraged, not prohibited.
    Sampath
  • naatram is actually smell...good smell...
    durnatram is bad smell. in our times we have changed tamil so much that we give different meanings to words than it actually meant.
  • Kalki actually was progressive to say even this much given his conservative audience. There was a debate sometime ago on literary classics and where Kalki's writing stands. He may not be classified as serious writer by literary critics for this reason that he wanted to cater to the masses by diluting reality. (He did a lot of that with social stories also).
  • but AK and
    > samburavaiyar clans who are keen hunters and might have eaten non veg.

    yes orther than taxidermy which seems to have occupied an entire room in the kadambur palace, they must have had other uses for the animals they killed.


    > What about Poonguzhali - fish?

    she was also an avid devaram singer another generalisation of kalki to make her accepted by the reading class

    > I think, even recent historical novelists are silent on the food habits and have not explicitly stated that RR, VD, Kundavai and the lot ate non veg food.

    i am sure guilty of it but in KM needed to follow kalki's trends. In TOK i think there are mentions of meat eating and hunting.

    another point is the lack of info we had on varieties of food available.
    for example when were idlies and dosas introdued. however on the contrary in my next novel 'Madurai' i have pages and pages on arabic, mongol and turkish cuisine.
  • You know Venkat, I still remember some 'thinnai pechu' from my childhood days, I was not a very healthy kid and home schooled till 8th grade so saw a lot of this. My grandfather and his father and a lot of oldies tha time would get together to enjoy vethalai/smoke cigars and well..talk. Kalki was not terribly popular, even for the little he wrote and said. That is one reason why I developed such an admiration for him. Like his guru Tagore he wrote about women's rights, about casteism and a host of issues that made the strongly conservative audience well..think at least. He sugar coated a lot of it of course, medicine needs to be sugar coated lot of times but he did what he could. Literary critics often talk of writing reality as it is - Tagore, Bharathi, lot of writers did have courage to do that and maybe he did not go as far as they did, but he tried.
  • Hi

    after a long long time rahul's messages are preceding malathi's and not vice versa.
    madan vera pechaiyE kanOm.


    venketesh
  • from my childhood days, I was not a very healthy kid and home schooled till 8th grade


    home schooled . my my

    the other home schooled person i heard of was the small girl who translated parthiban kanavu when she was thirteen or so.

    http://www.hindu.com/yw/2004/12/04/stories/2004120400060100.htm

    venketesh




    so saw a lot of this. My grandfather and his father and a lot of oldies tha time would get together to enjoy vethalai/smoke cigars and well..talk. Kalki was not terribly popular, even for the little he wrote and said. That is one reason why I developed such an admiration for him. Like his guru Tagore he wrote about women's rights, about casteism and a host of issues that made the strongly conservative audience well..think at least. He sugar coated a lot of it of course, medicine needs to be sugar coated lot of times but he did what he could. Literary critics often talk of writing reality as it is - Tagore, Bharathi, lot of writers did have courage to do that and maybe he did not go as far as they did, but he tried.
    >
    >
  • Exactly,

    Neenga Kuwaitla irukenga illa, thats why you could catch my mind easily :-)
  • enna satheesh?

    dalavanur photovellam eppo post pannureenga?

    there is a folder in our group also. and awaiting your blog article.


    venketesh
  • Innum inga settle aagala sir, konjam time aagum. But will post the photos
    shortly.

    Namma periyannan Vijay irukkumbothu naan eppadi 'blog'arathu, anyway I will
    try my best soon.
  • Hi Members,
     
       This is Haneefa, how many PS members living in Kuwait.
     
  • How interesting really would very much like to know who his influences were. The Thiru Vi Ka style tamil was adopted by lot of writers, like Akilan for example. After a few chapters the reader will have a sense of irritation and want to give up. BTW even if we watch tamil movies of the 50s and 60s in the midst of social movie dhideernu hero thooya thamizhla pesa arambippar. Really hilarious.
  • Hi Haneefa,

    So far I know You, myself and parvada in kuwait...
  • If I remember right VD is also expressed saying that naavil echil oorum due to the natram.
    There is also mention of pongal puliyodarai...
    Curious question,when did we 'invent' sambar?
  • If I remember right VD is also expressed saying that naavil echil oorum due to the natram.
    There is also mention of pongal puliyodarai...
    Curious question,when did we 'invent' sambar?
  • If I remember right VD is also expressed saying that naavil echil oorum due to the natram.
    There is also mention of pongal puliyodarai...
    Curious question,when did we 'invent' sambar?
  • Hi,
     
      I have sent a mail to parvatha, but no reply and I don't know your e-mail address.
     
  • The genesis of this dish has an interesting tale linked to it. The Marathas were ruling Tanjore. Sambhoji was a great cook (the male clan members to note) and very fond of his amti (jaggery) with a handful of the tart kokum (aamchur/mango powder) thrown in. In a particular season the kokum that was imported from the Maratha homeland did not reach the bare larder of the king's kitchen. Sambhoji was cooking and the minions were shivering in their dhothis to tell him that his favourite dish could not be made that day. A smart Vidushak, who had been elected sous chef for the day, decided to solve the problem. He whispered in the king's ears that the locals used very little tamarind pulp to gain a better sourness to the curry and that Sambhoji should experiment with this variation. Voila, the dish with the tuvar dal, vegetables, spices and the tamarind pulp was cooked and served by the king to his coterie. The court declared the dish an outstanding preparation (they had no choice with the king as Chef) and thus was born sambhoji's amti that in time became sambhar" Thus the modern Sambar which we use is named after a king of Tanjore called Sambhaji. Due to distance from his native place and difficulty in getting Kokum, he used Tamarind and possibly added dhal, which is mainly grown in Maharashtra and Gujarat. He might have added Pure search must have gone in, in getting to the modern version of several types of Sambar.
  • Cool :-)
    As always from the days of Nala looks like Male members have innovated a good lot of recipes :-)

    Sambhaji not only gave us Sambar also named one cool actor on the dish :-)

    - R
  •  As far as I have read PS, I'll try to list out the food items in it. In the first chapter kootanjoru, at Sendhan Amuthan's house idiyappam, vellamapaniyaram with thengai paal, sadham and pulikkari, thayir, in the second part Poonguzhali brings him pongal I think, again kootanjoru with all the soldiers, varagarisi soru and valli kizhangu in the ship where oomai rani makes it, Thirumalai refers to pongal,puliyodharai. That's all Ican remember!

    ILLAVARASI
     

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