Venkat, did Kalki think through plots of SS and PK before he serialized them? I am wondering due to less factual errors in those novels. Or perhaps he was in good state of health and was able to maintain connections between characters effectively?
> Venkat, did Kalki think through plots of SS and PK before he serialized them? I am wondering due to less factual errors in those novels. Or perhaps he was in good state of health and was able to maintain connections between characters effectively? >
i concur malathi for I feel parthiban kanavu is a wholesome novel. pisiru illama kathai pogum
there are very strong rumours that SS was wholly written by kalki( he hid the manuscript from vasan) to whom he would have had to give it for publishing beause he was vikadans employee. seems very likely because there are very few lapses in SS. in first chapter itself he knows what paranjothi would be like in the last. in PS we find a meandering of his mind. someday when i have time i would klike to list all major happenings in his life when he wrote these novels.
Venkat, yes well said, Parthiban Kanavu..totally pisiru illaadha kadhai..no loose ends. SS too similar, very well formed characters and well thought out moving ending.
Why is PS so popular than others then - perhaps more charactes and came toward end of his career?
Sometimes I feel bad because at this rate of changes happening around us, future generations will be missing the great historic residuals of our Mother land.
hi, I am Rajee. I am new to this group. PS is a superb novel. After reading PS i am always in the dream of that period. I want to know whether nandhini is veerapandiyan's lover or his daughter and who killed AdthithaKarikalan? I heard that there is a novel which answer for all of the questions of PS. pls anybody let me know which novel is that.
I just wrnt through the Fact ficton write up on Kundhavai
"Aazhvar, this term only used to signify vaishnavaite saints who lived 2 to 3 centuries before cholas.
Why this lady was given such a title ? No other royal lady or male, either before or after kundavai was ever awarded such a title. So what does this title really mean? Is it a title given with a religious sense ? May not be, because she was a truely royal lady with no specific attachment to a given religion. She built only 4 temples : One saivaite, One vaishnavite (Sundarach chozha vinnagarm) one buddhist and one jain (Sundarach chozhap perumpalli), probably all the 4 in the name of her father. "
I read the article. A great amount of research has been done w.r.t to the etymology of the words. Mr Palaniappan contends that Azhwar is a change from the word ALvar as "zha" and "La" are allowed for an interchange in the Tamizh ilakkaNam. At the outset it looks fine, but my observations and questions are as follows:-
1. If one follows the timing of the usage of the word ALvar, as indicated by Mr Palaniappan, they are all from 900C.E and onwards. 2. The life time of Azhwaars definitely end before 900 CE as accepted by the Historians, unilaterally, so far. 3. The Azhwars themselves never use the word "Azhwar" to denote themselves in any of the pAsurams. 4. So at best the term "Azhwar" would have been coined by the Acharyas starting from NathamunigaL, who found the lost DivyaPrabhandhams and started the propagation of these pAsurams in temples and other Vaishnavite rituals. 5. They would have needed a collective term to address all the 12 (at least the 11 who are men) and hence would have coined the term Azhwar. 6. Why Azhwar? If one notices the trend in the preachings of these Acharyas (Starting from NathamunigaL) they clearly state that "Total Surrender" on the path of Jeevathmas will lead to Moksha. This total surrender comes only when one immerses themselves about God and hence they would have coined the word "Azhwar". 7. It is also very important that the first mention of the term Azhwar in Vaishnavite perspective starts only from NathamunigaL time and I have not seen any work by NathamungiaL or his successors where in the word was first used as "ALvar" and then changed the "Azhwar". 8. ALvar definitely means one who rules. Now this could not have been true for the Vaishnavite saints because they did a total surrender to Vishnu and said that only He is capable of relieving them from Samsara. So where did they rule? and who did they rule? One can say, poetically though, by their devotion they ruled the God Himself, and hence it could have been ALvar first and then later Azhwaar. But as I said in point 7 above, there are no early references to these saints as ALvars and hence Azhwar is Azhwar, in my humble opinion, right from the first coinage of the word. 9. Coming to ANdAL, she was termed so because somehow the term Azhwar rings a bell in all of us that they could be only men. Isnt it. So possibly trying to distinguish her, the word ANdAL would have been coined to indicate the feminine sense. 10. Also all the Acharyas starting from NathamunigaL did write in their commentaries that ANdAL, by her love, ruled Ranganatha, and when they were in search of a term that distinguishes her feminity, this aspect of ruling the lord would have come foremost in their thoughts and hence would have been termed ANdAL. 11. And finally, only when she is to be pointed out separately she is termed ANdAL. When in group, the saying is just that "AzhwaargaL panniruvar", means 12 Azhwaars. This is because, the term Azhwar, in real sense, does not have any gender associated with it. It was only the human, more importantly the men's brain, which thinks at times, wildly.
So I feel that Mr Palaniappan's (with due respect to his work) analysis, that Azhwaar was originally ALvar which later got transformed, holds good only on one condition that he should have indicated a reference to these Vaishnavite Saints particularly (the references in common like Siva being termed ALvan or The inscriptions in temples with words ALvAn etc are only subjective) being termed ALvAr and then at some point of time the scripture referring to them as Azhwaar.
4. So at best the term "Azhwar" would have been coined by the Acharyas starting from NathamunigaL, who found the lost DivyaPrabhandhams and started the propagation of these pAsurams in temples and other Vaishnavite rituals.
where did he find the prabandhams? and how? tell us about it >
Lost, does not mean literally lost. This can be explained in 2 ways.
Situation: It says that NathamunigaL on hearing some one sing 10 pAsurams on Thirukkudanthai Aravamudan was moved very much and enquired about the songs and who wrote it. But those people say that they dont know about it and also they know only the 10 pAsurams. The 10th pAsuram ends as "of the 1000 songs by Thirukkurugur Sadagopan, this 10.....". So NathamunigaL started the search for the remaining pAsurams. Getting the clue in "Thirukkurugur" he goes there, the present day Azhwar Thirunagari near Nanguneri, in search of the remaining pAsurams. He meets a person who claims to be a descendant of Madurakavi Azhwar who is one of the 12 Azhwaars.
1. Traditional Accounts: Traditional accounts like Guruparampara Prabhavam says that NathamuigaL learnt 11 more pAsurams sung by Madhurakavi Azhvar in praise of Nammazhwar and recited those 11 verses 12000 times and Nammazhwar appeared in his divine vision and taught him the remaining 1000 pAsurams and also the Prabhandhams of other Azhwars along with the meanings.
2. A Historical perspective: Devoid of any mysticism one can say that NathamunigaL searched for the pAsurams in Thirukkurugoor and would have got some old manuscripts from the same person who claimed to belong to Madurakaviazhwar lineage. The remaining pAsurams could also have been searched and found by him.
Whatever be the account, or whatever way it was achieved, it was NathamunigaL who revived these Prabhandhams which were lost in vogue (not literally lost). This "lost" could have been due to various reasons which would be a separate thread to discuss as there are no clear accounts which say how this was lost. So naturally, we can only assume about the way it was lost in vogue, as definite conclusions are nearly impossible at this juncture.
thanks for the detailed account. now could you please explain the link with PS volume 1. where alwwarkadiyan meets a young boy singing the pasurams.
venketesh
> Lost, does not mean literally lost. This can be explained in 2 ways. > > Situation: It says that NathamunigaL on hearing some one sing 10 pAsurams on Thirukkudanthai Aravamudan was moved very much and enquired about the songs and who wrote it. But those people say that they dont know about it and also they know only the 10 pAsurams. The 10th pAsuram ends as "of the 1000 songs by Thirukkurugur Sadagopan, this 10.....". So NathamunigaL started the search for the remaining pAsurams. Getting the clue in "Thirukkurugur" he goes there, the present day Azhwar Thirunagari near Nanguneri, in search of the remaining pAsurams. He meets a person who claims to be a descendant of Madurakavi Azhwar who is one of the 12 Azhwaars. > > 1. Traditional Accounts: Traditional accounts like Guruparampara Prabhavam says that NathamuigaL learnt 11 more pAsurams sung by Madhurakavi Azhvar in praise of Nammazhwar and recited those 11 verses 12000 times and Nammazhwar appeared in his divine vision and taught him the remaining 1000 pAsurams and also the Prabhandhams of other Azhwars along with the meanings. > > 2. A Historical perspective: Devoid of any mysticism one can say that NathamunigaL searched for the pAsurams in Thirukkurugoor and would have got some old manuscripts from the same person who claimed to belong to Madurakaviazhwar lineage. The remaining pAsurams could also have been searched and found by him. > > Whatever be the account, or whatever way it was achieved, it was NathamunigaL who revived these Prabhandhams which were lost in vogue (not literally lost). This "lost" could have been due to various reasons which would be a separate thread to discuss as there are no clear accounts which say how this was lost. So naturally, we can only assume about the way it was lost in vogue, as definite conclusions are nearly impossible at this juncture. > > > Regards, > Venkatesh > > > > > ________________________________
Yes, that goes with the Situation I explained. Of course Kalki uses the fictitious character "Azhwaarkkadiyaan" to refer to this incident. Remember he says about the pAsurams also.
It starts with " ArAvamudhE! adiyEn udalam ninpAl anbAyE"..........
In PS volume 1 the young is being introduced as NathamunigaL. the pAsuram would be sung by Azhwaarkkadiyaan himself.
> > Is there any literature or inscription to speculate that VD was under scanner during Uthama period atleast ? > > How come Kalki himself gave us an impression on these lines ? >
Hi sps
does kalki give an impression?
he ends ps with sundara sola saying nobody should talk about this after periya pazhvettaraiyar also claims the blame. in the post script he says vd and kunthavai married after some trouble. could have been anything.
To put in modern terminology, the works were out of print, and only a few copies (saved in the mind) were available, and these were collected, codified, grouped, set to music and distributed to a wider receptive community by Nadamunigal.
Nicely explained, Venkatesh. I attended a lecture by Dr. David Crystal, Professor of Linguistics, in which he said that scores of languages are dying and new languages are born every year. And a linguist, studying today's phenomenon hundred years hence will draw wrong conclusions, especiallly when he is not aware of oris not in tune with the culture of the language under study. Even the current 'cryptic' sms may become an accepted language.
And a linguist from the future will conclude that 21st century masses, though highly tech savvy, were weak written communicators and couldn't write a single correct sentence.
It is indeed heartening that all 'truths' claimed by western indologists are being questioned and reviewed.
hi vijay, i try to buy vandhiyadevan vaal novel. thanks. in sivagamiyin sabatham kalki wrote that aayanar had done with 108 statues of the sivagami. is the statues are there still?
=> > > > Even MGR was so much impressed with this inspiration and depicted a part of the episode in his movie KALANGARAI VILAKKAM ...(Ponnezhil poothadhu pudhu vazhvu... ) > >
most readers of SS after this movie imagined the leading couple of the novel as MGR and saroja devi- I guess
Really..am not so sure Venkat. MGR fans are unlikely to be Kalki readers/intellectual types although MGR himself was and that is another story. My humble opinion is that majority of people who viewed that song may not even know SS existed other than few of us like this.
what makes a powerful impact on us we beleive must have done so on others too.
for me there was a very strong impact of the light house concept which was reflected in KM
venketesh
> Really..am not so sure Venkat. MGR fans are unlikely to be Kalki readers/intellectual types although MGR himself was and that is another story. My humble opinion is that majority of people who viewed that song may not even know SS existed other than few of us like this. >
> Light houses evoke strong emotions in lot of people btw. I have seen many atleast here in the west.
Hi Maloo I once collected lighthouse trivia for a thematic diary. some here
one of the 7 wonders of the world was a light house. the one on the isle of paharos in egypt
The name of the island of Pharos is still used as the noun for "lighthouse" in some languages, for example: French (phare), Italian and Spanish (faro), Portuguese (farol), The word "pharology" (study of the lighthouses) is also derived from the island's name.
columbus was inspired to travel the seas because he had an uncle who was a lighthouse keeper
1912 Nobel Prize in Physics was for an invention of 'automatic valves designed to be used in lighthouses'.