The Indian Law is one of the most complex and has all the solutions and caters to situations faced by woman in general. Except that the implementation of the law of the land is at a very pathetic level. As citizens, women should approach and get relief by the getting the law of the land into implementation mode.
I did not discard it because of inhibitions, but primarily the fact that I didnt want to be defensive when answering the question (been there, done that, never won any sympathy ;)
So, I just mentioned the fact that I agree that women's position is still not equal in our society... more than that it is inconsistent, like somebody mentioned... some women do not get thier equal status, while some misuse the laws to victimize men (I hear there are men's groups to counter women misusing the law against them).
Anyways, what I said in my first mail was really what I thought counted. That a vast majority of moderate women still struggle to be considered equal.
I do not agree with the fact that women need to sacrifice 'femininity (whats the darn spelling ;)' to become great. In fact, women should not think about 'femininity'. I think 'femininity' itself is a male-dominated concept. When a female lion fights its prey, the buck doesnt look at its femininity, nor does the accompanying male. The very concept of femininity (though makes the female look more dignified and beautiful), is a tool to make women look different from men.
'From the heart': I think this is a more emotional issue than factual for most women I have met. In all probability, they are respected, and treated equal in the family (not in the society), but still long to do something for the others who are not so privileged. It is like a a well-educated person discussing illitracy, and not doing anything about it.
I thought I should say that, because, you mentioned that "there was not much response to this topic". I wondered if you would have ever said that about any other topic. Dont think so. Thats why I said that (Yes, I meant that you were speaking from your heart).
Nanda, I think rather that expect women to try and get the law of the land into implementation mode as you call it, the thing to do might be to get men to change their attitudes!
Dear Anandhi, very heart warming to hear from you.
Pazhamudhir solai opened when I was there, 8th grade i think. Just with lemon juice and sathukudi juice, small shop. How it has grown!! When I was young eating out was always Annapoorna. Annapoorna owners were our neighbors on subramanyam road - Chettiar and his wife and their 4 sons always courteous, we have been to all their family weddings and even grahapravesh when they moved to a palatial house on Periasamy theru.
All the movies we watched were at Kennedy and Shanmuga. Kennedy manager was our neighbor so mostly free, on rare occasions or if the movie is a huge hit then Rs 2 for balcony. Quite unimaginable nowadays.
Yes in my time Kovai was called 'poor man's ooty' since it was very moderate climate wise, and lots of trees and greenery. The climate changes started even while i was there, am sure it is very hot now.But as you say hope it stays that same in so many nostalgic ways :))
Satish, that article is kind of half baked..atleast on the issue of women being moms and working. Abroad there are *lots* of stay at home dads, including some indians. There is no concept of ego around work, it is just a means of making money and either gender who does that is fine.
Ravi, aggression is not 'relentless pursuit', aggression is unfair domination over others. It is not a male or female trait atleast as far as humans go.
It might be true that successful women needs a backing from Spouse / father / Mentor or that could even be her mother, friend or someone. It holds good for men also. You have a popular saying 'There is a woman behind every successful man'. Because this is a inter-related or even you can say inter-dependent society. But still there are some women and men who have succeeded by themselves (at least as far as we know that they are not dependent on anyone) like Mother Teresa, Abdul Kalaam etc., But since this is a male-dominated society, may be the proportion that are dependent would be greater for women.
Still most of the conservative families believe that responsibilities of the family like looking after the children etc., is believed to be a women's job rather than men's, although both should have the same responsibility. Women are expected to give preference to this rather than her career. Although most of the women can succeed in their carrier by themselves, its true that her husband has to share these family responsibilities, so that she could concentrate on her career. Its the same for men. If a wife depends on husband for all the house-hold jobs leaving little time for him to concentrate in his career, its obvious that he can't succeed in it.
On the other hand, we also should look at the plus and minus Nature has given us. Even if the male is ready to share the responsibility of household and bringing up children, the care that a mother gives can never be compared to that of the father. Not only humans, we can see this in every species. A women can raise her children without a males support but its next to impossible for a man to raise his children without a female support. Exceptions are there, but still in general, 'nallavar aavathum theeyavar aavathum annai valarpinile' and not thanthai valarpinile.... Thats why in India, we worship mother and see everything in female form too...our contry is motherland and not fatherland for the obvious reasons..
A women can excel in career, but a man cannot excel in bringing up the child or a good home maker..
Yes Definitely I agree there are things that men and women can do better, child rearing happens to be one of them. Although in advanced countries stay at home dads are very common and earning moms too. Germany for example. Germany is also called fatherland btw :)).
I was talking of femininity also perhaps in the same context. Most people think of women leaders as the stereotype Indira Gandhi/JJ model - aggressive, ruthless and somewhat lacking in or ashamed of nurturing skills. Bringing emotion into the workplace is often branded 'feminine' and both men and women are branded 'softies' if they are caring, nurturing,respect others and do not conform to stereotyped models of leadership.
One of my favorite female leadership role models happens to be media queen Oprah Winfrey. Oprah is not aggressive in public, does not hesitate to show emotion and caring, and yet is a very successful business woman and role model. Some virtues to learn from...
i have been keeping of this topic for some time, but thought i will butt in with my 2 cents - just to make it interesting. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the largest animals ( elephants, bison, whales) and the small - bees,ants, termites - are interestingly matriarchal societies. But except for the small ones, the large ones technically are not a family - meaning boys come do their job and go, the females run the house. ok, Go here means GO - out of the pack.
So is there something in nature for us to look at - is there a truly symbiotic -win win - male /female 50/50 relationship in nature. Its for long been one king / one lion ( oru kattuku oru raja) kind of survival - but those were the days of brute strength - i talk of sculpture ( my fav) you see the physical size differences - i am not just talking attributes, but the general scale of our our own dieties. Even though you pray to both male and female gods, the statues were not depicted as equal - atleast in scale.
But today, with the advent of technology,its kind of evened the playing field - and grey matter towers over sheer muscle power.
But for long, men have grown - as boys seeing their grandmoms and moms doning a submissive role - some of it may be hard coded into the genes as well - thousands of years of role perfection, maybe the changes will happen, but will it happen at the same pace as technology - maybe evolution cant match human innovation- maybe thats the reason why the power struggle is compromising into so many broken relationships - man / women relationship is unique - in the sense that its a win win association - not like business where one man's profit is another man's loss - so you are going against the basic tenets of nature which always votes for a clear leader - instead we are for a coalition rule, will it survive...
why dont we use this topic to study pS men's mind set about Ps womens self respect.
i think there are several instances.
first the head strong women nandini kundavi and poongkuzhali. how the other kings ridicule nad fear nandini kundavi's growing power in court circles and how kundavai keeps away physically by staying at pazhaiyarai. pungkuzhali too prefers staying away from mankind for similar reasons.
vanathi and manimekalai could not have survived intodays' world. they were submissive, the ideal sort of wifey materiel. manimekalai rebels in her own way in the last. even vanathi dares to go alone to search for amv.
sembian madevi too complains that people are complaining about her spending too much.
all this was written in the forties.
i still see a lot of women around who strongly resemble these charecters.
Let your wife take a bow from me. I salute that lady who had been a visionary about real estates. But again the sample size is small from your end as well. Both the parties can keep on quoting examples which will keep this thread active for sometime. But I trust thats not the motive of this thread.
In one of my earlier mails in this thread I have accepted that given the freedom and suport women can shine in their fields and I quoted the case of ICICI Bank. I will go even a step ahead, with the support and freeodm woman out class / out smart men. But it is mandatory for ALL SUCESSFUL woman that she gets freedom and support.
Where as MOST OF THE SUCESSFUL MEN didnt need support from woman. This is my observation about the society. If I am proved wrong I am ready to eat my words. After all this group is for learning new things / sharing ideas and knowledge.
~ Udanx
*Thats the end of my mail for woman folks*
Guys,
It may be noted that behind every bright man's failure in life / business there is definetly a woman's hand!
~ Udanx
PS: I am that my inbox will be bombarded with feminist in our group for the previous line. Lunch @ Andra Mess and Curd rice in action ... Kanna Kattudhu ... So thought of writing a mail which will keep me awake for some time now! Velila Ore Mazha What to do?
Hi Malathi, I am from coimbatore.I disagree on this part of your mail-girls of coimbatore see movies, shop for saree , eat out and are thoroughly spoilt.please do come and see them now.There are women like Rajshree Pathy,Mrs.Nandhini Rangasamy,Dr.Asha Rao,Mrs .Rajini krishnamoorthy to name a few who are heading bussiness and educational institutions.Some youngsters in their late twenties are also managing schools very well.My friend whose family is one of the top ten families in coimbatore is in charge of a multi specality hospital and she runs it so well. Even here in coimbatore you can see young girls zooming in their two wheelers late in the night. with regards, shanthi
Dear Shanthi, I was talking of the Kovai of my days(70s and 80s). Very glad to hear of the progress. It would be pertinent though to look at some statistics also - I have been to different parts of TN - Tiruchy, Madurai, Kovai, for example. Comparatively speaking Kovai lifestyle was much more laid back and more prosperous, definitely.
In my class of 54 girls only 3 of us did post graduation. Out of that one stayed back in Kovai, one went to Delhi and I came to US. It was completely unthinkable among the rest to go out of Kovai. Even when I visited some beloved friends they are astonished 'enna panareenga anga' .Also was pertinent that in those days atleast there were no bookshops or libraries in Kovai - other than those selling textbooks and tea stalls with tamil magazines. I was among the minority who used to go to railway station Higginbothams for buying books or frequent old newspaper shops to grab discarded copies. It is a true fact.
If things have improved am truly happy since it was the land I grew up in,
But please read my mail carefully... I have clearly said, there are exceptions and that doesn't make a general statement. Your father is an exception and everyone cannot be like your father...
Udanx, SPS sir has already gave you an explanation which made my job easier. I think you didn't get my point. In my last mail itself I told that 'there are some women and men who have succeeded by themselves (at least as far as we know that they are not dependent on anyone) like Mother Teresa and Abdul kalam'.
And also I told earlier that both men and women are dependent in one way or other in a society.
when you say that somebody influence your carreer's success, it doesn't strictly mean that they have to help you in your carreer. They should cooperate with you in such a way that you have enough time to concentrate in your carrer. Even the wives or husbands who donot know anything about your job could contribute to your success by looking after all the responsibilties at home, including your responsibilities. That may or may not come to light even in case of great successful person.
you have told that 'behind every bright man's failure in life / business there is definetly a woman's hand'!. So you yourself accept a woman has influence in man's failure. This implies that a woman has influence in man's life and so also in success. That of course applies for a woman. I just go by your words only.
Its my humble opinion that, nobody is trying to prove you wrong, we are just exchanging our views. Ofcourse opinion differs, that does mean somebody's wrong and somebody's right. Have no hard feelings, and be cool.
Behind every successful person, there will be several people who would have played important parts. Some will be men and others will be women. However, if the successful person is a family man/woman, his/her other half needs to be understanding, supportive and may have to sacrifice a lot. Ideally, one should strength and motivation from the other.
If we look at any great achievers in public life, we will see they will not have devoted that much time to their family. Usually, the achievers have been men and therefore the saying 'Behind every sucessful man there is a woman'. I don't think it refers to mentors. Men usually have another man as mentor and women likewise. There are, of course, exceptions.
We just have to accept that men and women are designed differently (physiologically as well as psychologically) for a purpose. If one ventures into doing something that is traditionally the other's territory, there will naturally be resistence. Therefore, it will be harder to do, initially.
In western society women have much less barriers to compete equally with men. One thing I don't understand is, even here, there are still manners like 'Ladies first', when it comes to getting in to car, lift, giving up seat,offering wine, etc. This is something even the most liberal women don't seem to mind!
That was my half penny worth. This goup is very rich indeed with every one giving their 2 pence worth!
Men and women being equal does not mean they are 'same' there are basic differences which will never be the same - the average man is usually stronger than a woman, a woman can have children and has certain natural nurturing tendencies, women think from the 'heart' as someone said and men from the 'head'. These differences are exactly why there are differences in treatment as you point out - it is courtesy to open doors, carry bags and such things to a woman, and if you see carefully usually many men *like* a woman to ask them for help with heavy luggage, let them drive the car, and so on. It has nothing to do with being liberal it is just simple good natured acts of courtesy to one another with gentle awareness of how we are different.
Female strength is moral courage not physical. It is conceptually not understood at all unfortunately in many parts of our country despite having so much of historical and religious background emphasizing it.
Success in career and success in personal life are two different things. Career wise there are lot of sucessful men / women, whose personal life is pathetic. So suscess in one field (Career) doesnt need sacrifice by the partner in the other (Personal).
But if you want to strike a balance of good career and good personal life then the sacrifice of the partner comes in picture. I am talking about sucess in career alone. Now tell me what are we talking / discussing about. Are we in the same page? If YES Then we will discuss.