Hi obviously the story starts when the chola dropped govindarajar of thillai in the sea.?
from the trailer we can see a vaishanavaite priest who resists the soldiers when they try to open a door of a temple with battering rams. the god inside the temple is a reclining vishnu of mammoth proportions. the priest has a thenkalai naamam and also sangu sakram tatooed on the biceps. the vishnu statue is then taken on a horse drawn vehicle, then balanced between two boats, the priest is tied to it and dropped into the sea.
the rest of the trailer is about germ warfare with biotechnologists hoveing in masks. so there comes kirumi kanda cholan. i guess our group was one of the earliest to decipher the story . we did it months back. venketesh
> > SPS, you too youtube :-) > Hi > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Sivapathasekaran
Mr.Venketesh; A rather elimentary question. Which sea did they drop poor Perumal into? Any chance they dropped Perumal into Kaveri instead of an ocean, as isn't it more near than an ocean?
to chidambaram the sea is closer than kaveri how i wish some sattelite mapping can be done in the killai area to find if the original govindarajar rests in the sea bed. it would be the archeological find of the century.
place names around pichavaram could be analysed for some link.
also the sea seems glorified in that area. it was in cudalore that appar came floating ona granite block. near chidambaram the original govindarajar may be residing.
Hi listened to the songs of dasavatharam in radio mirchi WE WERE RIGHT the story is about the kirumi kanda solan
there is one song with the pallaandu in the back ground kallendru paarthaal kadavul therivathillai kadavul endru paarththaal kalladi therivathillai
some words address the king "you may be rajarajan but rangarajan is better than you"
also kamal has a charecter most presumably called vishnudasan the song goes rajya lakshmi and srinivasan are the parents of vishnu dasan ( he has punned on the real names of hir real life parents)
I listened to the songs. THe song you mentioned is the one of the songs thats good in that movie. Good lyrics too. Typical hindi flavor in some of the songs. 'Mukunda' has the flavor of 'konjum mainakkale' from kandukonden kandukonen. Why a hindi music director for this movie?
too much hype, oothikkama irukkanum. Because Kamal has bad luck for all his experiments and unique movies.
I saw the song Kallai Mattum Kandal song, yesterday from Dasavatharam, wow... i had goosebumps when the camera moves over the Gopuram of a temple. Though the graphics in the scene is obvious, it is still good. When I bought the cd and listened to the songs, disappointingly none of the other songs are good. Hope the movie makes a good entertainment.
As per the biographies of Ramanujar, Vaishnavas were not persecuted by the chola king in the manner we we all assume today. The king, a devout saivite, wanted all the vaishnavas to accept that Siva was above Narayana and say it loudly. One of his ministers, a vaishnavite, to avoid the harassement to simple folks, told the king to make Ramanuja accept Siva's supremacy, as he was their most visible and prominent guru. When the king's messengers came to take Ramanuja, his disciples, fearing he may be harmed, impersonated him and went with the soldiers. The strong willed disciples not only refused to accept what the king wanted, but gave a cheeky reply, and both lost their eyes, and one died soon after. Ramanuja was persuaded by his devotees to leave chola territory and he eventually settled in Melkote; he returned to Srirangam only after the king's death.
The king was not against vishnu or vaisnavas; there is no contradiction in his making endowments to Srirangam and other temples.
I still firmly believe that we must not jump into hasty conclusions disregarding tradition and faith.
Hi i think there are sufficient records of the gingee naiks that govindarajar was re installed in chidambaram during their rule in 1500s
also ramanuja i think is after this incident of removal of govindarjar.
i think saivism and vaishnavism must have almost functioned as two distinc religions along with saktha matham. they must have united during the jain antagonism, but after their defeat must have pounced on each other. the saktha matham of kapalikas literally vanished. we have references in sivakamiyin sabatham on their harassment by the pallavas.
i would really like to knoe when the earliest reference to govindarajar in thillai occurs. was this the collosal statue or a smaller idol which must have been a symbolic removal. temples around chidambaram have small shrines of vishnu like thiruvengadu. nothing like this scale.
perhaps the original govindarajar was a similar sub shrine and the gingee naiks made it big on re installing??
I just saw Kalaignar's note about the first scene. He mentions that the Chola king asked Ramanjuar to not tell "Narayana" and asked him to say "Shiva"
If this incident never happened, then I don't know who advised Kamal about it and how he took it. But I am sure everybody will think the movie is correct, but we can wait and see once the movie is released and revisit the debates.
Well, that was a really confusing statement from MK. Actually according to the Srivaishnavite Guruparampara which talks about the stories of all the Acharyas of Srivaishnavism starting from Nathamuni until Manavalamamuni, it is not Ramanuja who was asked by the Chola King to recite Siva's name as supreme.
The story goes thus: (As taken from the book "Guruparampara Prabhavam")
..... Once when Ramanuja was away from his mutt, at Kaveri for his bath, the soldiers of the Chola King came to his mutt and informed that the King has ordained Ramanuja to court. Knowing well about the Saivaite inclinations of the Chola King, Koorathazhwan, the foremost disciple of Ramanuja, was much worried about the outcome of the meeting. He thought it was his duty to protect his Acharya and hence he silently adorned the ascetic robes of Ramanuja and along with Periya Nambi, the Acharya of Ramanuja, went to the court of the Chola King in the disguise of Ramanuja. He also instructed other disciples of Ramanuja to carry the normal robes of a "samsari" and asked them to prevail upon Ramanuja to escape with that robes. Though Ramanuja did not accept this at the beginning, knowing well that Koorathazhwan has already left in disguise, and also giving in to the pressure by his other sishyas, prayed Sri Ranganatha for the well being of his Acharya (Periya Nambi) and his Sishya (Koorathazhwan), left for Melkote in present day Karnataka.
Koorthazhwan stood before the King, in disguise. However, there was a minister by name "Naalooran" in King's court, who was once supposed to have been a sishya of Koorthazhwan. He immediately identified him (traditional accounts vary from calling this act as treachery to utmost concern about his own acharya being prosecuted - truth yet to be deciphered) as not Ramanuja. However the King ordained Koorathazhwan to write a declaration accepting Siva as the Supreme God. The wording that Koorathazhwan was to have declared was "sivAth paratharam nAsthi". Meaning there is None Greater than Siva. Of course Koorathazhwan did write it. But added another line to it. "drONamasthi thatha param". Meaning, However "drONam" is larger than 'sivam". In older days the words sivam and drONam were used as the measurements. drONam was larger in measurement than sivam.
On hearing this sarcasm the Chola King was outraged and asked the eyes of Koorathazhwan to plucked along with that of Periya Nambi. However Koorthazhwan said "why does anyone else need to pluck my eyes. I will do t myself as I have seen a sinner through these eyes" and plucks it himself. In this process Periya Nambi dies due to the pain.
This is how the account goes. So I suspect a complete screw-up in the screen play, if whatever MK said in the function is true. However we cannot conclude until the movie is out and we see it for ourselves.
Mr.Venkatesh; That is a truly wonderful account of whats written in the Prabhavam. I too heard this from a family friend who is a staunch (not fanatic) Vaishnavite. By chance we both were viewing the Dasavathaaram trailer. Upon viewing the scene where Kamal is tied to Perumal and dropped into the sea he told me this version. This person im talking about also has the tatoo (or is it burned into the skin? Can somebody confirm this?) on his bicep. They are not allowed to have a moustache/beard too. But Kamal has both in that particular scene. I think its pretty hard to stick with the legend in the movie. Maybe Kamal just took the cusp and formed a creative story based on that. The movie should clear this up.
1. Regarding the Tatoo: Yes I saw that too. It is correct. The Srivaishnavites will bear the marks of Sangu on their Left Shoulder and Chakra on their Right shoulder. This signifies that, person has completely surrendered to Vishnu and has accepted Him as his Sole-Saviour.
To reflect a little on this, this act of getting the Sangu-Chakram marks embossed is called "samAsrayaNam". The equivalent of this is the "thAli" that the women wears from their husband. Here the husband is supposed to be the Sole Saviour of the women and she is supposed to only rely on her husband for everything. Philosophically, in Srivaishnavism, it is considered that all jeevAthmAs are female in Nature and the only Male is the Supreme Being, which in this case is Vishnu. So when one gets the "samAshrayaNam" done, he is supposed to be faithful only to Vishnu and not to anyone else.
This is why you see that staunch Srivaishnavites do not go to any Siva temple. Rest assured it is not fanaticism, but utmost loyalty to Vishnu considered as their husband. Like any chaste woman would treat any other men (other than her husband) with respect, but will never look forward to them for anything, the Srivaishnavites as a practice, go and pray only at the Vishnu Temples, though inherently the respect is there for all gods, be it Siva or Muruga or Ganapathi.
2. Beard and Moustache:
Together, both are allowed but none in isolation. I honestly do not know what is the significance of this. But that is the practice that I know. I cant have a moustache alone. However if one grows them together, it is okay. Probably some Brahminical Ritualistic significance! Any other learned member can throw some light on this.
However the buzz is that Kamal had contact some Vaishnavite scholars in Triplicane and other places. So if he still has taken such a scene like King asking Ramanuja instead of Koorathazhwan to recite the verses, it is nothing but a GLOBAL SCREW-UP!! :-)
i have seen the tatooing( or branding) instruments used on ramanuja himself(???) in mathuranthakam temple. they were discovered in a secret chamber in the last decade
.>>>> So if he still has taken such a scene > like King asking Ramanuja instead of Koorathazhwan to recite the > verses,
> > > > > This person im talking about also has the tatoo (or is it burned > into the > > skin? Can somebody confirm this?) on his bicep.
rahul , kamal also had a thenkalai naamam( straight lined like a trident rather than the U of vadakalai)
but one doubt?? didnt vadakalai originate after ramanuja??? then how does he do this say some 50 years prior?
can sps clarify the timelines of
a. ramanuja b. the chitrakootam incident of govindarajar and the sea dropping.
isnt there a prevalent story that ramanuja recovered it and placed it in kizh tirupathi?????
venketesh
They are not > allowed to have > > a moustache/beard too. But Kamal has both in that particular scene. > > I think its pretty hard to stick with the legend in the movie. > Maybe Kamal > > just took the cusp and formed a creative story based on that. The > movie > > should clear this up. > > > > Regards > > Rahul > >
The origin of the Vadakalai sect is a perennial debate going on between both the sects of Srivaishnavism. The thenkalais claim that vadakalai as a distinct sect originated, not only after Ramanuja, but only after Manavala Mamunigal, the last acharya in the Guruparampara. The vadakalais claim that thenkaalai originated from Pillai Lokacharya, the predecessor of Manavala Mamunigal.
This debate will never end as both are not ready to accept the other's views. Let us leave it at that. However, if one enters into a philosophical debate, I had recently written a small writeup regarding this kalai differences in one of the personal mails on that debate. If members are willing, I can share it here. Ofcourse, it is subject to a debate.
Ramanuja was born in the year 1017 AD and he lived for 120 years. He attained Paramapadham in the year 1137 AD. These are the timelines which all the historians accept unopposed.
Regarding the Chitrakoodam incident, this has no link to the Koorathazhwan episode. This is said to have happened later, though within the times of Ramanuja. And you are right in saying that Ramanuja retrived the Moolavar of Chitrakoodam from the sea and got it installed in Kizh Thirupathi. I am not pretty sure, how he was reinstalled back at Chitrakoodam. I only read somewhere (may be in this group itself) that He was reinstated during the times of Nayak kings much against the wishes of the Dikshitars of Chitrakoodam.
Coming to the movie, I presume that Kamal is neither acting as Ramanuja nor Koorathazhwan. He is just the priest of the Temple of Govindarajar, a normal character, who finds no mention in the history.
To answer straight, yes, the Thenkalai signs "were" prevalent and they were the only ones prevalent. I am not trying to be biased here but let me present just one proof here. I have already discussed the logic behind Thenkalais only being prevalent during those times in the article that I said I have written. I would like to present it only if some one is interested. Please do not think that I am trying to build-up here. Actually I wrote that article during one of the debates on the Vadakalai and Thenkalai issues. That is the reason, I am asking for the permission to write about it here.
Now for the example/proof about the Thenkalai namam. Again I will take refuge under the Srivaishnava Kulapathi Nammazhwar. In his Thiruvaimozhi, he sings about the style of the namam. He says.....
Note the words, "niRai malarp pAdhangaL". I am sure you would all have noticed at some point of time that it is only the Thenkalai namam which depicted as the two legs of Vishnu over the Lotus flower with Lakshmi embedded between the legs. This just is one example. Incidentally this is the only reference to any namam of any sort in all the 4000 Divya Prabhandams.
>I just saw Kalaignar's note about the first scene. He mentions that >the Chola king asked Ramanjuar to not tell "Narayana" >and asked him to >say "Shiva"
During that function of audio release Kalaignar was telling that "one has to be firm in his stand in the life whatever may come" referring to what Ramanujar refused to say siva?. Kamal was also nodding his head to his statement.
I just could not hide my laughs at these two gentlemen.
1) Kalaignar including his party gave up their stand for separate Dravida nadu to stand in the election in the 50s. Their stand on "politics" is well known
2)Kamal's stand on the term of "marriage" changes frequently
Kamal, now yes, he tries to innovte, bring new ideas/thoughts into movies. He is by no means a mature intellectual, only seems to try often times in half baked ways.
In our hero worshipping culture many people think this guy is more than he is, that is more of their fault than his that is all.
Thillai incident doesn’t have any connection with that of Kurathazvan incident... as the later incident took place some where near sri rangam, and very much before the Thillai incident And lord Govindarajar was established in kizh tirupathi...By this time Sri.Ramanujar was very old... Some where nearing his 100s.. and it was one of shiyas or nambis who went along with the Govindarajar into the sea.. Thirupathi as a whole used to be domicile for all our lords from down south, weather its muslim invasion or internal problems.... be it Lord Sri Ranganatha.. or Govindharajar... some body was asking about astaksharam.. the same refers to the name of the lord "om namo narayanaya"... this the one mentioned in the dasavatharam song... and this is manthra which sri ramanujar gave into the whole world going on the top of the temple announcing the same to the whole world.. The way to get moksha even if he goes to hell...
yeehh... and now!! he has taken the most expensive movie ever made in India.. There is a same hype as it was there for Hey Ram.. Hope this does well in the market at lest for the producer's gain..
if kamal can arrange some connectivity between a 12th century start and a 21st century finish it would be really good. but then this story too went to court remember. kamal was accused of plagiarism
Hi the way kamal ties his long hair in the trailor is so similar to his appearance in "Hey ram"- hey ram by the way is a lift off from a chapter in khuswant singhs delhi( in my opinion one of the best historical novels ever written)
Mr.Venketesh (vinjamoor_venketesh, this is getting crazy :) ) You writings are very informative. Have you written in this group before? If so im sorry, i must have missed the mails. Do keep this going. If these are your first mails then i presume on seeing this topic the Vaishnavite in you just came out screaming (no offence, just a joke). This happens when my father and my family friend (the one i was talking about earlier) start having a chat about thier visit to the meenakshi temple. This family friend (im delibrately refraining from naming him) doesn't go into the Sivan sannidhi. My father, being a Saivite (not fanatic, we visit Srirangam too), starts the arguement and it keeps continuing. For an arguement and topic which has been going on for more than 10 centuries i think it remains incredibly fresh.
I just wanted to convey this, this is also a pretty sensitive topic hence i request our members to tread VERY carefully and refrain from hurting another's feelings. In the name of democracy and openess of society we seem to take too much of a liberty. Sometimes an iron hand is required so i request our moderators to keep a watch on these threads and mercilessy delete any mails which might seem offensive.
I remember reading a story on this, don't know where, possibly Kalki but could be someone else too.
A Shaivite and Vaishavite are arguing on which is better, naamam or thiruneeru. The vaishavite wants to take down al lthe horizontal bricks from the house they are in in defence of the argument. The shaivite does the opposite and removes vertical. Finally there is no house left.
This is a century old argument, and ridiculous argument in my opinion. Like the Annamarcharya kirtan rendered in MSS's melodious voice Entha maatramuna evvaaru thalachina antha mathrame neevu - whatever ways devotees seek you, you are that.
Rahul, I can stand him quite well :) I respect his acting skills tremendously, i think he has great talent, and he seems to be a kind hearted humanitarian too who discouraged hero worship and ecourages social work.
He is not some intellectual trying to teach us ways to live. All his views on athiesm, marriage etc are his own views, not something people should look upto and learn from. He has developed a bloated ego and seems to air these views like they are hugely important - as thinking, sensible people we shold learn to ignore, that is all.
Very informative discussions and quite interesting.
The marking of sanku and chakkaram...I think they call it also as 'deekshai'.. am i right?
Its good to know that reason for people not going to Siva temple just because of the loyalty and nothing else. Is this applicable to people only who take deeksha or all the vaishnavites? why I am asking this is,people who dont take deekshai also dont go to siva temple. This is not generalized as I know iyengars generously participating in siva worship. But there are other kind of people too.... recently a group of iyengars went on a trip to Badri but they didnt go to Kedar. I really appreciated their devotion but at the same time wondering how can they do it? As discussed, its upto the individual preference and should not be questions.So lets leave it there.
In PS Kalki says that saivam and vaishnavam was not like the current day practice, where a family will be totally saivam or vaishnavam..A person can be a strong saivite, and his brother can be a staunch viashnavite.. But later days it changed. I think its true.
We know a family where one is a saivite and his co-brother was a vaishnavite. when we built a temple in our area in 1993, when the saivite donated the whole shrine of Siva, just for competition his co-brother said he will build the entire vishnu shrine. this competition helped the area vasis ultimately :)
Also, there is an understanding that in brahmins iyers are saivites and iyengars are vaishnavites. Iyengars being vaishnavites is accepted. But iyers being saivites is not. Kanchi maha periyava clarified that people who follow sanakara bagavad padal (those who are considered to be saivites) are not saivites, but smarthas.
smartha means those who accept advaitam and in advaitam there is no supremacy of one god over other. so there is no question of following siva or vishnu and consider all the gods are ONE.
But the current day understanding is quite different.
Coming back to Dasavatharam, given the hype I am very much eager to watch this. It should not sothapify as any other kamal movie which comes with a hype.
veera saivism is still prevalent in parts of karnataka. here in tamilnadu i think thirupati settled the issue for shavaites. no more 'shiva temple only' shaivaites here.
i know muslims, buddhists and jains visiting tirupathi. its just phenomenal. when ranganathar and govindarajar seek his solace why not mortals. venketesh
If we really believe in being open minded we should not call iyengars participating in shiva worship as 'generosity' in any way.
The correlation of iyers/iyengars to shaivites/vaishavities is tied down to casteism - like Venkat said Lingayats in Karnataka are veera shaivas, there are veera vaishavaas among people in Andhra too, they are not iyers or iyengars.
To me just thinking we have to have all these borders and restrictions and 'respect' those who believe them is itself our unwillingness to acknoweldge that it is wrong to divide God in this way.
> Hi malathi > > if kamal can arrange some connectivity between a 12th century start > and a 21st century finish it would be really good. > but then this story too went to court remember. kamal was accused of > plagiarism
And the judge cleared the case stating other 10 different roles by a single person nothing is in common with the stories.
--- In ponniyinselvan@yahoogroups.com, "R.venketesh" > veera saivism is still prevalent in parts of karnataka. ===============
The NAGAPPA - Former Karnataka Minister - who was allegedly killed after being kidnapped a couple of years - was a VEERA SAIVITE. -------------------------
Dear Satish,
To know certain basic details re temple practices in SAIVISM ::
The Deiteis Siva - Vishnu - Brahma were coexisted and co-worshipped in all the siva temples as could be seen from Thavaram hymns..
Sekkizhar hymned PERIYAPURANAM during Anabaya Kulothunga II period.. and was revered by all..
This should have prompted various IDAICHERUGALs in Literatures etc., to caste shadow on the Kings / Saints at later point of time.
We have already clarified that CHITRAKUDAM was a place of worship using Paadagam (Painted Narayan image on clothes) which got detoriated over a period of time and that was submerged in the Sea with reverence during Kulothunga period ..
When a Ramar Bronze was found ( recently )about 100 years back in a village named as THILLAI VILAGAM (near Thiruvarur ) (Pls ref Archieves again) it was postulated whether Thillai vilagam - Chitrakoodam was associated with Lord Rama (of this Thillai vilagam - near Thiruvarur)!