Hi what were the education systems in ancient times lets say rrc's time.
even if vedas were limited to the bramhins people had to be trained in other skills too like accounting or acting as scribes to record things. what percentage of people knew the basic writing and reading? venketesh
I would venture a guess: All those (at least the majority) engaged in administrative jobs (directly under the king or locally), connected with religious or secular fine arts (literature, poetry, dance etc.) would have been literate.
Those connected with trades and agriculture, might not be literate but filled with native wisdom and knowledge. I use literate in the sense - read and write.
each skilled worker must have come from a guild. mostly hereditery. easy becasue an apperenticeship was possible very early in life. must have been hard for a new comer to break into that circle.
but did those gurukulams ( like what we saw in mahabarat or ramayan serials) exist to teach people reading and writing.
I would say the western education system has made us to think that only those who are capable of reading and writing are educated. I would say there is a lot of difference between education and litracy. Education can be on anything, knowing the know-how, from basics to the complicated where as litracy stops at just reading and writing.
Kerala today boasts of almost 95% litracy, meaning almost 95% can sign thier name, but cant even read or write. Just a paradigm shift from 'kainattu'. thats all. Whats the use of such litracy?
We feel that, if a person knows to read and write, that too english, then he/she is an intellectual. Today, almost 40000 (?) engineers pass out from enginerring colleges in TN. Does that mean all those 40000 pass outs can do engineering wonders? If you ask them, I bet, almost 95% of them will not even know the three Newton's law. Whats the use in boasting 40000 engineers per year, without any quality?
I am sure, in olden days, people had the practical knowledge, did know the know-hows of things, which helped in the daily life. Reading and writing might not have much relevance in early days, because there are not much of material available to read - practical difficulty of manually writing 1000's of manuscripts (modern day kai ezhuthu prathi pathirikai kind of stuff) to distribute.. hence ruled out.
After so much scientific advancements and research, US has approved that (even patented) the medicinal values of Neem, Turmeric etc. But even an illitreated patti in our village can say that they posses medicinal values, they are 'kirumi nasini'. An old man in village can tell the exact time just by looking at the sky, where as people in city (including me) cannot tell the time without a watch.
So I am sure, our ancient people were surely educated, but might not be literated. Another basic difference in our system of education and western style is this - we never relied on written piece of information, everything was memorized, where as the western style purely depends on writing and reading.
So mixing litracy and education is not going to help us in any way.
appappo vanthaalum sathish "appaadiyo nu solra maathiri varuvaaru.
no sathish we are not mixing up literacy and education but that was a important thing.
how many pages of text do you think all the kalvettus of chola chera pandya will fill. my guess is close to a million pages if you put all the edicts text available today.
these certainly were not meant for you and me to read in 21st century because we ourselves have seen they are mostly mundane things like which land was given by whom for what purpose. that is mostly local grants rules and info
so did that mean a huge population of that time could read these edicts?
> We feel that, if a person knows to read and write, > that too english, > then he/she is an intellectual. Today, almost 40000 > (?) engineers > pass out from enginerring colleges in TN. Does that > mean all those > 40000 pass outs can do engineering wonders? If you > ask them, I bet, > almost 95% of them will not even know the three > Newton's law. Whats > the use in boasting 40000 engineers per year, > without any quality? >
Very true. We interviewed several fresh engineers in my company recently and gave them a test in C/C++ language. Not even one scored 35%.
> Another point to look at is, as SPS quotes often, till british found > out that RRC built big temple, everyone thought it was built by > Karikalan. The kalvettu in big temple are supposed to be the best > handwriting (?) (as per Lavanya, ruled note-la ezhudhinapla) but for > centuries no one even bothered to read that themselves. > > So what heppened in the middled? Suddenly people became illitrate? or
This I can answer during the last pandya- british period people were learning telugu instead of tamil or marathi- the court language.
the musical trinity of the cauvery banks wrote in telugu remember.
venketesh
> from ancient time itself people were illitrate? yosikka yosikka romba > kozhapputhu... > But I am still sure, people (almost part of the society) were well > educated in olden times, irrespective of whether litrate or illitrate. > > Regards, > Satish >
cool, but why did they have these in the first place. why did they have to name these complicated fractions?? or for what use would 1/ 18,38,400 be put to, for it to be so important to have number/character for itself. thats what is baffling
I dont know about ancient tamil education. But, i will bring about how the education was in our village some 50-100 years back. Probably, we can extrapolate to guess the education system of ancient tamilnadu.
Our village had no brahminical temples. Most of them were vellalars, and typical other communities who are all interdependant on each other.
There was a teacher family, who educated the whole village with Avvaiyar literature like kondrai vendan, athi sudi, and mathematics, some level of english knowledge.
There was no fees collected by that teacher family. Instead, the each vellalar family, provide 12 pakksa, (60 kgs) of paddy to the teacher family.. irrespective of whether their son studies or not.
The teacher would make sure, that every child comes to his house for learning. I heard from my father, that there was his friend, who would not attend the school, and instead take his sheeps & goats for grazing. When the teacher notice him, he will despatch some 4 or 5 boys, to catch him and bring him to his home. Those boys would do the same, and when they bring that unrelenting boy to him, the first thing the teacher does is to teach him counting, and mathematics table.
Fearing his sever punishment, the boy will study all those. No wonder, my grandfather who is 85+ still recollects "Athi sudi" from his memory.
> This I can answer > during the last pandya- british period people were learning telugu > instead of tamil or marathi- the court language. > > the musical trinity of the cauvery banks wrote in telugu remember. > > venketesh >
That sounds scary. Then how did Tamil survive at all?? A tamil revival should have happened for sure, who was responsible for that??
> But finding a good teacher for higher studies seemd to be a > herculain task those days. >
Must be later day problem, the very detail to which the units are pursued is a sure pointer to an advanced scientific working in tamil.
Check below article from wiki on
Units of time in ancient Tamil history 1 kuzhi(kuRRuzhi)= 6.66 millisecond-the time taken by the Pleiades stars(aRumin) to glitter once.
12(base 8) or 10 kuzhigaL= 1 miy= 66.6666 millisecond-the time taken by the young human eyes to flap once.
2 kaNNimaigaL= 1 kainodi= 0.125 second
2 kainodi= 1 maatthirai= 0.25 second
6(base 8) or 6 miygaL= 1 siRRuzhi(nodi)= 0.40 second-the time taken for a bubble (created by blowing air through a bamboo tube into a vessel 1 saaN high, full of water) to travel a distance of one saaN .
2 maatthiraigaL= 1 kuru= 0.50 second
2(base 8) or 2 nodigaL= 1 vinaadi= 0.80 second-the time for the adult human heart to beat once
Currency 1 pal(wooden discs/sea shellots)= (approximately) 0.9 grain 8 (or 10 base 8) paRkaL =1 senkaaNi (copper/bronze) = 7.2 grains (misinterpretted by Roman accounts as 10 base 10=9 grains) 1/4 senkaaNi =1 kaalkaaNi (copper) =1.8 grains(misinterpretted by Roman accounts as 2.25 grains) 64 (or 100 base 8) paRkaL = 1 KaaNap-pon a.k.a. Kaasu panam(gold) = 57.6 grains 1 Roman dinarium was traded on par with 2 KaaNappon plus 1 SenkaaNi (=124 grains).
but was the thirukural thought in these village schools??if so did the schools have written versions of the kural or was it also quoted from memory. same goes for athichuvadi
> > That sounds scary. Then how did Tamil survive at all?? A tamil revival > should have > happened for sure, who was responsible for that??
tamilnadu must have been greatly depopulated in 1314 had malik kafur decided to wreck havoc all over. but his route was straight and simple. he touched chidambaram, srirangam and madurai and returned possibly chased by the pandyas the second muslim invasion 10 years later occupied madurai and remained in power for 60 years. though history books say they did not go much beyond madurai i recently read in a book SPS gave me that coins and edicts of the madurai sultanate were found in pudukottai district.
however with the invasion of vijayanagar empire ( or liberation if you call it) a huge telugu population moved into tamilnadu. i think demographics has remained in the same ratio there after. but sivaram you have raised a good queastion. who sponsered the tamil revival.? was it a by product of british liberalism? venketesh > > > > -- > with luv & regards, > siva > > ever tried. ever failed. no matter. > try again. fail again. fail better. > -- Samuel Beckett > > Blog: sivaramsk.blogspot.com > Journal: sivaramsk.livejournal.com >
Along with other excellent questions by Thiru Vijay Kumar.
- Karikalan vs Raja Raja Chola as the builder of the big Kovil. Why was the tradition of the people not trusted? Any reason or just because they were treated as degraded hindus not to be trusted with their own history. What is the possibility that Karikalan build the Kovil but somebody else(or may be Raja Raja Cholan) wrote the inscription and Raja Raja Cholan got the credit. Personally I do not know. Which side has to be believed the inscriptions or the people's traditions and the detailed reasons for the conclusion. - How did the legend of Karikalan building the Kovil arise. Was the legend of Karikalan more powerful than Raja Raja Cholan that people assigned everything to Karikalan. What was the basis of Karikalan's popularity among the people - any poems, dramas etc? Or did some great propagandist(like the case of modern media) came and brainwashed the people. - private property is a new concept so registration of documents is ruled out. Western private property is different from Tamil grants. So what was the reason for inscriptions? - Pallikudam (Palli, pallivasal are they Jain, Kudam - kudal?) were they Jain teaching institution with Jain teachers. - Are the scripts used in the inscriptions same as today. If not why was it changed ? If so why did people people think that Karikalan build the Kovil? - Has there been research on the inscriptions itself like were the inscriptions rearranged and if rearranged was it done by people who understood the inscriptions or had they become illiterate by then. Were the inscriptions transcribed whether by literate or illiterate people?
Sometimes thinking aloud also helps .. everybody. No thoughts are stupid thoughts as long as one think's and analyzes. Every seeming failure adds to knowledge.
Thanks for the interesting posts and sharing knowledge. Special thanks to Vijay.
> - Are the scripts used in the inscriptions same as today. If not why > was it changed ? If so why did people people think that Karikalan > build the Kovil? > - Has there been research on the inscriptions itself like were the > inscriptions rearranged and if rearranged was it done by people who > understood the inscriptions or had they become illiterate by then.
Hi,
You will surprised to note the changes in the tamil scripts over time....starting with what is called the pallava granta script. the same holds true for the sculpture/icons as well. this is what adds an aura of beauty to these pursuits. ( check the files section for a sample under the name iconography)
Even the transliterated versions are not easy to understand, for eg - check out the tamil kings meikirti ( true fame)
after you look at the kalvettu you will be surprised that these actually are tamil and someone can make decipher them ....they look more like vivek comedy ( jangiria pichi potta mathiri...)
Our archives are valuable as well, in terms of content and discussions.
Following up on sps sir's mail to newcomers, please go through our archives and feel free to post - there is nothing too basic or trivial in our group and it will be a breath of fresh air, when new entrants can post / raise new questions - welcome break and could offer a different angle.
I dont think Tamil took a back stage during the telugu/maratha rule.Every now and then either a saint or peot became prominant. Avvaiyar's athi chudi is till date one of the first things taught to a Tamil child. How this is in practice for nearly 2000 years? May be during the 14-19 century, other languages also had prominence and due to political instability and insecure feeling of the people not much was done during these days.
14th Century - Kumaraguruparar stood as a becon light of spirutuality and tamil propaganda. If TulasiDas can get inspired by Kumaraguruparar's Kamba Ramayana discourse and set on to write Ramacharita manas, then we can understand the impact of his discourse on Tamil people.
Later days saints like Patinathar, arunagiri nathar, abirami pattar - did a great deal to tamil and spirutaul renaiscence.
Time is not always the same and swings from one end to other. A full circle is the law of nature. I myself has posed questions in this group as, before Thyagarja, what keerthanai's were sung by our carnatic singers? Does it mean that only after thyagarajar carnatic music came to limelight? Not so.
Again quoting U.ve.Sa, he mentions about great many carnatic singers of that era (either contemprory or prior to Thyagarja) who excelled in carnatic music and the compostions they made in tamil. unfortunate that all are lost and due to some reason only telugu keerthina's are in vogue.
1000 years of Non-hindu and non-local's rule (not only in tamil nadu but entire India) has done a lot of damage to our roots. It will surely take some time to heal. When the current generation has understood that today's education system is not up to the mark, there is some ray of hope that our olden days practices can be revived.
The Tamils had a huge written tradition. I sent some links to this effect few days back.
After a poetry was sung at the Tamil Cankam and accepted by poets, it might have been copied and circulated to people. There might have been a central repository at the Tamil Cankam. Withought that it might have been very difficult to compose Akananuru, Purananuru etc.,
Copies of copies of copies might have ensured a wide reach among the people.
> > after you look at the kalvettu you will be surprised that these > actually are tamil and someone can make decipher them ....they look > more like vivek comedy ( jangiria pichi potta mathiri...)
This is a beautiful article, ackn to key epigraphists - make sure you scroll down to the bottom page 32 onwards - chola, pandya inscriptions, incl those of our beloved ponniyin selvar and oe of parantaka 1 as well. painstaking research has gone into dechipering these...vj
It is reported that prior to 1800, there were more students attending schools in India as compared to UK. I had seen a version of this report in which district wise tabulation of schools was listed.
We all know there are significant gaps in our knowledge of our history. Wise thing now is to collect and collate all the links, without drawing hasty, affirmative and assertive conclusions. That is why it is painful when adverse comments are made on absence of evidence or our ancestors not keeping diaries. We must not look everything from book-keeping angle.
Sampath
"The government of Madras presidency completed a survey of Indian educational institutions in 1823-24. After that it came to be known that despite the poverty and disturbance, there were about 13,000 schools and 740 colleges under the presidency. According to this survey the original number of students in school and colleges were 1,88,650 out of which 42,502 were Brahmans and 85,400 were from the castes known as Shudras. The remaining were Vaishya, Mohammedan and from other Hindu castes. The numbers of girls were only 4540, but according to the report this lesser number of girls as alleged was mainly due to the prevalence of home education of girls."
> > >>and the man who said this was a weaver. > > >>venketesh
Hi,
We also need to talk of the Gupta period....Aryabhata, Varahamihira, Brahmagupta- great contributions to Vedic mathematics ,similarly in medicine - Charaka Samhita and the Susruta Samhita, arts...music.. The Univ in Nalanda..how and why did nalanda fall. read that it fell to invaders from central asia and due to its size the main library burnt for six months.....