vanakkam friends, what i say may sound strange to you but... raja raja chola's mother tongue would have been TELUGU!!
Sri.Nilakanta sastry in his pioneering work History of South india (OUP) says that ...during the historical night of kalbra's period the members of chola dynasty fled to present day AP and founded a dynasty called CHODA GANGA dynasty. CHODA is derived from CHOLA. And after a period of appx 3 centuries parantaka chola captured thanjavur and set up a chola kingdom there which later became a chola empire under the able leadership of raja raja and his more illustrious son rajendra.
remember , rrcs grand uncle wrote a thiruvisaipa in senthamizh and most of their edicts are in tamil
telugu chodas were a parallel branch after rajendra's time ( ????) they too claimed lineage from karikala. I am not sure if vijayalaya was a telugu choda.
dear friends, it was acutally vijayalaya chola who captured thanjavur from muthhariyar chief then feudtories of pallavas. Hence he was called tanjai konda..... parataka was hailed as madurai konda after he won over the pandyas. nothing can be derived abt kalbras except they were generally considered as evil rulers and there were some exceptions too. here we have to understand one more thing.... present day state boundries cannot be a yardstick to ascertain the medieval period linguistic areas. so what can infer is language is no bar to the conquests of mighty chola empire. chola inscriptions were found in tamil, telugu as well as in sanskrit. we must also remember that the well trained army of RRC went as far as present day orissa(kalinga) and it culminated in grand victory over pala kings of bengal during rajendra's reign. this is not over, chola navy crossed the palk strait won over sinhala king of srilanka then crossed bay of bengal to defeat the army of srivijaya . its king vijayatungavarman accepted to be vassal of chola empire. chola navy ransacked kadaram and rajendra was hailed as kadaram konda. chola empire extended upto e .asia and perhaps one of the biggest in the medeival world.for 50 years cholas controled the sea trade and it is generally believed that rajendra undertook the kadaram operation not only to extend the empire but also to check the pirates who troubled indian and chinese merchants and these pirates were encouraged by vijayatungavarman. i hope we can understand the might of chola empire.
The Telugu Cholas claim and are proud of their lineage leading to Karikal perumthirumavalavan, So the Telugu chodas we infact tamils.
Moreover, I doubt the existence of Telugu language when Karikalan marched north until Imayam. Any evidences of Telugu inscriptions during Karikalan's period?
I doubt if there were Telugu inscriptions before or during Karikala's time(2century BC-1century AD?) Most of the inscriptions north of Tamilakam were mostly in Prakarit or sanskrit or in Brahmi. This was something I read, but no clear proof or evidences currently available. If for the very same logic or reasoning then Pallavas should be giving their inscriptions in Telugu or a Telugu Brahmi, but clearly no, as they are mostly in Sanskrit or variant. Refer to Mahabalipuram or Kanchi inscriptions from Simhavishnu or Rajasimhan.
Please do correct if my statement seems to be wrong.
Clearly states that that Karikalan is 1-2nd century. I guess you could have mistaken Karikalan for someone else in the 5th - 6th Century in the chola. Clearly we dont know the cholas during the 550AD, isnt that time of the Kalabharas?
Some small doubt, are the early kalabhraras anyway linked into the kallar? kala-phirar and kala-padai? maybe spell it out it could go eerily similar. By the way, started reading V.Kanakasabhai's Tamil eighteen hundred years ago. Very nice book, probably many of us would have read it before.
Vengi naadu was existant and the lineage might be right, however the language what we know of as telugu as it is today may not be the same as the language of yesteryears.
Even the tamil prior to Rajendran's march to the Ganges is different than the tamil after (reading of Thiruvasagam's tamil vs thirupugazh or kambha ramayana both of 1200 - 1400 ad Kulothunga III 's kingdom and later pandya regime after the Chola empire).
Fiction or not : on a side track: The origins of Sangam age have always been very confusing and debatable, I have read one convincing argument that Sangam age was in the Lemuria (for ones who believe in one) and prior to the sinking ( & Tsunamis), the then Pandya king was made to move his Capital to a high land, Then Mathurai with the same model constructions. So the origin of actual sangam age (&Tamil by itself) could be much older.
dear friends, it is interesting to read the different view points. lemuria taken over by the sea(indian ocean?)is more or less an established fact. so we have to take that also into consideration. so we would have had first and second sangams much much before our known chronology. second sangam in my personal opinion would have been in and around 2000 B.C. can any body correct me if i am wrong?
Personally I think Lemuria sinking is prior to the age of Mathura's destruction. Lemuria is quoted as a place where Mt.Meru is ( a philosophical quote). The association of Tamil with Lemuria as Atlantis to Sanskrit is somewhat known. Veeramahendra puram and Elangai (depicted in the legends) seem to have association with the 1st tamil sangam. Ages of those are into the treta yuga and earlier to it dating the 1st to be atleast 6000 yrs BC.
When we talk of dating pre historic ( i mean known history)events like lemuria we should also see the parallel development of mankind
wheel, and agriculture were the primary instruments of an advancing civilisation.
Most historians regard the wheel as one of the oldest and most important inventions, which originated in ancient Sumer in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) in the 5th millennium BC, originally in the function of potter's wheels. The wheel reached India and Pakistan with the Indus Valley Civilization in the 3rd millennium BC
so did lemuria function with out a wheel?
LEMURIA
Geologists today regard sunken continents as physical impossibilities, given the isostatic equilibrium of continental plates floating on the thermoplastic mantle.
Though the living modern lemurs are only found in Madagascar and several surrounding islands, the biogeography of extinct lemurs extending from Pakistan to Malaysia inspired the name Lemuria, which was coined in 1864 by the geologist Philip Sclater in an article "The Mammals of Madagascar" in The Quarterly Journal of Science. Puzzled by the presence of fossil lemurs in both Madagascar and India, but not in Africa nor the Middle East, Sclater proposed that Madagascar and India had once been part of a larger continent, which he named "Lemuria" for its lemurs.
Sclater's theory was hardly unusual for his time. The acceptance of Darwinism led scientists to seek to trace the diffusion of species from their points of evolutionary origin; prior to the acceptance of continental drift, biologists frequently postulated submerged land masses in order to account for populations of land-based species now separated by barriers of water.
In 1999, drilling by the JOIDES Resolution research vessel in the Indian Ocean discovered evidence [1] that a continent about a third of the size of Australia sank about 20 million years ago. Samples showed pollen and fragments of wood in a 90 million-year-old sediment. This might lead one to expect similarity of dinosaur fossil evidence and will help to understand the breakup of the Indian and Australian land masses; it does not support the concept of Lemuria OF 6TH MILLIENIUM BC
The Lemurian (& Atlantis) continent was super developed by the time the reminder of the world was seen to even discovering fire. We can only produce logical conclusions for these facts. For ex: Darwins theory, It is my personal opinion (along with many religious sects) that the theory is flawed and not true, simple question for a layman would be, if Man was to have come from the monkey, why are monkeys not becoming men any more? Geological environmental situations ? I would not buy that. So how does this context relate with Lemurians and the rest of the world. I believe that creations has been simultaneous and not based out of migration from one land to another(which is a by product at some places). Human evolution has been spontaneous and there are always super humans and normal / under evolved humans on earth. Comparitively, New york is more developed than a remote village in Africa or the aborginees of australia. In about a few thousand years later, when the world graphics change and it reconstructs itself (as it did during the ice age), there may be a place where the future archeologists will find that we did not exist and the native australians were the first ones to figure out farming.
Again this is a theory and logical. There are relative figuratives when we look to religion to side with this theory though. for ex: those who believe in hinduism can say that Super humans (persons like Rama / ravana etc) coexisted with humans ( common men / sages etc) and super evolved animals (hanuman etc). In short creation has been spontanic and there is no practical timeline to adjudicate the fact that this event happened only at this point in time etc. These are guidelines for this era. Creation (shristi) has been simultaneous and we are only working on a sequential program once we figure out the non sequential process of creation it will give various answers to unsolved mysteries.
Hence, according to me, the real origins of physical findings on 1st tamil sangam are a very difficult pill to swallow. There can be only logical conclusions. I will try and attach some old scriptings on languages for references.
Again, this is theory as it states in the first words of the genographic project. They talk about human migration again based out of fossils found on earth crust. The theory I believe is much earlier than the proposed genographic project. Again science can only believe what it sees on the senses. What my question would be is the process of reproduction of mankind vs conversion from monkeys or any other evolutionary theories. The timeline, in essence, for genographic project is my concern.
Hi vk Dr.Pichappan of madurai kamaraj is associated with the project
When I met him he was talking about securing dna from people to identify linkages. earlier they had a difficulty getting blood samples.
it was something like "kelviyellaam kelungka .pathil solrOm. aanaa intha oosi podra velaiyellaam venaam." now they hav develped a way of isolating dna ferom mouth washes(volunteers gargle and the water is used)
a similar project was done of people with mongol origins. and a huge percentage of mongols were related to one common anscestor( speculation is ghenghiz khan)
On a book by Panmozhi Pulavar Appadurai, (I guess the name is 'Thennattu Porkalangal'), he mentions, there had been more than one Karikalan in Tamil history.
The first one could be Karikalan Perumthirumavalavan, who, waged the war,marching north, collecting the Chendu from Sastha at Kanchipuram, he is believed to be the the part of the earlier lineage of Imayavaramban neduncheralathan and Cheran Chenguttuva. Cheran Chenguttuvan's Kannagi Vizha, was attended by Sadhakarni (Nootruvar kannar), who were ruling Magadha after Great Mauryan Dynasty. So, there could be an earlier Karikalan, who conquered north, and made his valor proven at Venni.
There exits a plenty of evidence in support of Origin of Telugu chodas who are in fact migrated from Uraiyur, Present Day Thiruchchirapally. In this connection if you want , u can refer to ' The History of Tamils' by Srinivasa Iyangar .
Hi thats right. but the issue we want to clear is whether the second chola empire which includes RRC and RJc originated from the telugu chodas and spoke telugu as a mother toungue.