[Hai Madan and well done Kamal
  • Dear Kamal...

    Well done ... a real saataiyadi for Madan and I think he deserves it for those who havent read Madhans original


    Its here and a reaally good response from Kamal

    Kamla has this been send to Vikatan thats more importnant...

    Mrs Kalavathy

    I shared the same sentiments which you and karthick shared till I encountered all the stallverts in our group ...If this isnt histrory what is???

    I think as a tamilian I feel Madan deserves to apologise to Tamils as a whole for belittling our culture ...our poets and our kings

    Well done Kamal
  • Hi,

    The link does not work. I am interested in reading the
    original article.
  • Arul
    if you go to varalaaru.com its in the list of articles
    the original Q and A is there as well
  • Dear SPS, Sri and others,

    Thanks for bringing this to attention of the group and
    your kind words. I havent checked group mails for past
    couple of months. Yesterday i was told about these

    The letter was handed over to Vikatan in person by Ram
    and vikatan passed it to Madhan. Also, it was given to
    Mr.Iraiyanbu when he met Dr.Kalaikkovan last week in
    Trichy. At that time, Iraianbu said lot of rejoinders
    were received from readers.

    We dont think vikatan will publish them. They already
    refused to publish our letter on Udaiyaloor

    Dear Kalavathy madam and Nandhakumar,

    There are lot of solid evidences to write tamilnadu
    history. It is us who refuse to look at them. Do you
    mean the works of K.A.Neelakanda Sasthiri,
    T.V.Sadhasiva Pandaraththaar, M.Rajamanickanaar,
    K.R.Srinivasan, etc are not authentic? They also used
    the same so called 'not recorded efficiently'
    evidences. After their era, lot of new findings were
    out and we have much more data to write our history
    perfectly. Those new findings definitely give better
    information than indian summer and mangoes. If
    possible, please read 'Kaala aaraaychi' by
    Dr.M.Rajamanickanaar to understand how the chronology
    is fixed for tamil kings and literatures.
  • >
    > We dont think vikatan will publish them. They already
    > refused to publish our letter on Udaiyaloor
    > pallippadai.

    people are rather hesitant to publish a contradictory view.
    there has been enough discussions in ponniyin selvan group last week
    to literally demolish the CHOLA PASS THEORY mentioned in a very
    knowledgable article in Varalaru.com
    will varalaru.com publish our views which are contradictory to theirs?

  • Hi Kamal,

    In no way, I am denying or turning a blind eye in the richness of our history & culture.

    A simple question on the Udalayur pallipadai, why cannot we as a group file a PIL saying that JV is publishing a wrong news item there by misleading people? This can definitely pull them up. The information on this PIL can then be sent to competitors of JV and Vikatan group. what say?
  • -Hi

    I dont think madan was sarcastic at all. its a sub concious cry of
    the more I think of it the more I think he could have been right

    dont forget nanda. mandan has his own achivements. his one book
    vanthaarkal vendraarkal has sold more copies than all the titles of
    all the historians kamal mentions. thats no mean achievement.
    his contribution to history is that he took it into the houses of the
    common man. if you read the books of these historians you will
    understand they are not for the common man. referenced and cross
    referenced. madans book was the simplest presentation of an era.
    I am sure he would have jumped on an opportunity write a good book
    about the cholas and it would have been a bigger best seller. but he
    has realised one cant. and as one of the sharpest minds in todays
    society we should read more into his answer.

    his reference to mangoes on jahangirs breakfast table was a challenge.
    they have recorded even the king's breakfast. what do you really know
    about your kings.
    on the contrast our bunch of historians still quote poetry and
    hearsay stories and co incidences in words( like chola pass) to
    substantiate. we dont realise how funny it is to a TRUE historian.

    frankly we cant write more than a page on each battle of RRc.we dont
    even know when he died. we assume the year when his edicts stopped
    appearing. a similar study of such a great king in similar year ( for
    example william 1 of england) has enough matter to write a dozen

    and the contradictions. even the paintng assumed for long to be RRc
    above the big temple is being identified as somebody else by the
    esteemed historians of this group. whereas the copper plates say he
    was old enough to sacrifice the kingdom for his uncle a stone edict
    in thiru koviloor suggests he may have been just a baby when his
    father died.

    pazhuvettaraiyar is a big man for us because we love PS. but it is
    just a chance that you got their lineage intact.and there have been a
    thousand clans like pazhuvur. but the major things are still
    I can tell you, inspite of all the rheotoric on behalf of the
    varalaaru team you cant write an authentic book about RRC with more
    than 24 pages with evidence available and can be coraborated by other
    sources. even that may be difficult.
    SEASONS PUBLISHING did a book on kings of india and while all other
    kings are written about with solid evidence the author had lifted
    RRc's story from ponniyin selvan.
    if we start seeing history as a science just like physics and
    chemistry it will not allow us to have a needless sentiment. this
    sentiment is what helps a lot of people go around in the clothing of
  • Stone edicts as evidence

    in a few temples around thondai nadu we have chola inscriptions of
    Raja raja in the walls of the inner sanctum.
    photos of them have been published in our group photos section.
    also there is an edict in each of these temples by one '
    have you people heard of him? do we take hime to be a emperor just
    because his edicts mention him as lord of the three worlds. he was a
    local chieftan in the naik period.
    it was then that i realised some edicts could be as sychophantic as
  • hi;

    this reminds me of the scene in Imsai Arasan, where Vadivelu is posing for a
    painting of himself but with the body of a wrestler. He says "Varalaaru miga
    mukkiyam amaichare". The kings of those eras would surely have exaggerated a
    lot when describing thier victories in kalvettu and poems. They would have
    noted down thier victories but would have conveniently forgotten to mention
    thier failures.
    I would like to know whether all Kalvettus are like this or how do we
    authenticate that the kalvettu is historical account and not an exaggeration
    by the sculptor to win gold coins from the emperor?
    If we are not able to trust kalvettu,poems then on what do we base our
    theories upon?The Copper plates? Doesn't this mean Madan is right?
    Would it be possible for the people who are writing against Madan in this
    group to prove that thier theories are based on findings which are more
    authentic than poems and kalvettus? Can anybody list them?
  • > If we are not able to trust kalvettu,poems then on what do we base
    > theories upon?The Copper plates? Doesn't this mean Madan is right?

    some copper plates I remember from which chola lineage is determined
    traces their history from the sun.
    true all our atoms came from the sun. but isnt that too much.
    we cant even directly and honestly connect the early cholas with the
    later cholas. the gap is 500 years.
    its not the medium that counts, its the sponsor.
    whether its copper plates, or olai suvadi or kalvettu the man who
    sponsors the writing gets a lions share of the publicity.
    kamban himself compared major charecters in his ramayana to sadayappa
    vallal who sponsered his daily expenses.

    recently i attended a book release function.
    Vaali's poems on karunanithi. 5 poets recited their poems on the cm.
    pa vijay, palani barathi and vaali included. for somebody new to have
    beleived the 5 poets would have made them feel the tamil world is
    surviving only because of his endevour.
    I thought in this modern age this sychophancy works. how it must have
    been in those days.
  • Madan was definitely sarcastic. Especially when he
    mentions about poets that they praised the kings for
    money and drinks when there is no need for Madan to
    hang on unreliable evidences. There is a solid
    evidence in these poems that the king and the poet are
    contemporaries and this is big lead to find

  • Venkatesh,

    Listing the challenges in a pesimistic way, is it not
    Madan's way?
  • Natarajan sir,

    Why do you take it as a pesimistic approach? Why cant we try to
    answer these question? I am no way possess any knowledge in this
    subject compared to the stalwarts in this group, and I do have a lot
    of confidence on our rich and long lasting culture and history, but
    when it comes to writing it down, we have to accept some

    We should admit that we dont have all the evidences to write Tamil
    history. WE do have a lot of them but they are still not making the
    ALL the needed stuff. I look it on a different perspective. I have
    told this to Venkatesh a lot of times...our history is closely tied
    with Religion. As per our religion nothing is stable and everyone
    accepted it. Everyone had high regards for god and not for humans.
    Thats why none of our ancestors showed much importance to human life
    by recording the history, but recorded the lives of saints
    (eg.periya puranam) and sang the glory of god (tirumurais)...

  • > Venkatesh,
    > Listing the challenges in a pesimistic way, is it not
    > Madan's way?

    Hi Natajan,
    if you stir up your memories you will know this topic did not arise
    after madans answer.
    we spoke about this earlier. you and me.
    in kanchi hotel chingelpet when we had all gone on that trip last
    year during the lunch we had the same argument .
    i almost remember the words. the discussion was what do we really
    know about RRC.his birth? his death? and the time in between.

    well, what do we think are RRcs greatest achievements?
    i as a staunch shaivaite woul rate finding of the thirumurais in
    chidambaram as no 1.
    an architecture lover would rate building the big temple.
    a ponniyin selvan fan would rate his sacrifice of the throne to
    uthama as his greatest achievement. pinnacle of sacrifice is how the
    translated version of PS calls it.

    we all however agree that these three are the greatest achievements
    possible in one man's lifetime.

    yet they too are clouded in doubt and contreversy.
    BIG TEMPLE why should the upper chambers be incomplete( RRC was a
    perfectionist- rememeber). why was this temple and tanjore almost
    abandoned soon after RRC's death.
    THIRUMURAI- there are so many theories as to the finding of
    thirumurais. now historians claim the event itself is a legend or
    that rrc was not involved.
    SACRIFICE FOR UTHAMA- there are kalvettu evidences in thirukoviloor
    suggesting that RRC could have been a baby when his dad died. this
    could perhaps explain a lot of things on what he was doing during
    uthama's reign.he was propably a kid.

    its not that we dont have a history. we have a great one. but then
    the lacuna in explaining them hurts.
    you are a historical fiction writer too. how easy do you think
    gathering info is?
  • hi;
    looking at the lighter side of things its really quite funny that the king
    who the time to build some of the biggest structures in the ancient world,
    conquer far away lands dint have time to just sit down and write about all
    this. All he had to do was spend a month or so during his final years in
    writing or sculpting his life. I find this very very wierd.
    He dint even have to do it himself he could have got somebody to do it.
    Looks like even RRC did not know how great he was and how the future
    generations would admire him.

    The same mistakes are being made even today. Lets compare the ancient
    empires to the business empires of today. Almost every European or American
    businessman or CEO (the really famous ones and the not so famous ones) take
    time out to write books about how they got there, thier life, etc. Jack
    Welch, Gates, Ricardo Semler, Sam Walton, etc. This way people learn about
    thier exploits, mistakes, etc.

    Can you name one Indian businessman who has written a book of his exploits?
    Recently Kokila Ben launched a photograph collection of Dhirubhai Ambani's
    life but nothing else. Even the incredible Mr. Narayana Murthy has written
    very little about his life. Maybe im not aware of a few biogrpahies on
    Indian businessmen but the truth is the cupboard is bare when we cmpare with
    the Eurpeans and Americans. Thank god Dr.Kalam took time out for recording
    this. Even in Indian cricket Sunil Gavaskar has a biography and maybe a few
    other cricketers but absolutely nothing from some of the most incredible
    talents like GRV (i cant remember reading even an interview from this
    artist), Chandra, etc. Looks like we haven't learnt anything from our past.
  • Hi,

    But,mere selling in hundreds & thousands of a book
    does mean it is more authenticated than the books
    which sell less.

    National award winning films seldom has better
    collection at box offices
  • Hi All,

    Am just wondering, were the north indian greats like Asoka, Harsha
    Vardhan, had properly documented evidences for their conquest. How the
    pre muslim indian kings life's were documented?
  • mere selling in hundreds & thousands of a book
    > does mean it is more authenticated than the books
    > which sell less.
    mandan has his own achivements.

    thats a good point.
    we do have art movies that get awards and dont run a day in the
    but will you disregard the achievement of rajinikant or mgr movies
    that run for a year.

    we are not comparing the historians and their achievements. but
    madan's book stands high on the podium as the highest selling history
    book in tamil.and even if the tens of thousands who bought it are
    idiots an achievement is an achievement.

    and authentication about vanthaarkal vendraarkal is not the issue
    here, madan has quoted from recognised sources.
    the very aspect that he refuses to do a book without materiel to
    substantiate it shows his commitment.
    we may not agree with him but we need to listen to him
  • Hi Venkat,

    Its good to hear that you are standing your ground. I am still wondering about one missing link. As per historical sources, there were the Thiru mandira olaikarars, who would write down the various requests of the kings. Over the years, there would have been thousands and lacs of Olais on various instructions, commands, and notifications and just like the current gazette system used by the government. It is definitely possible that these olais would survive the test of time, at least some would have definitely made it. Its just that we have not identified the source of these olais. These would possibily be safe in the private collection of many individuals or groups or people or society. Its just we need to find the source.

    Just another possibility, that we would have materials that we have overlooked ourselves. These would be authentic sources in the lines of what we need to validate and make use of.
  • Hi Nanda

    I dont dis agree that we have had a fabulous history.
    at least in the later history of tamil nadu we have had great
    it was the momentum that they provided that enabled our society to
    survive a millienium.

    and history is not a static science. when authentic discoveries are
    made changes have to be made in text books.
    but unfortunately for us chola history has remained static after
    nilakanda sastri's time.
    it would be useful to debate what has been discovered after him.no
    earth shaking discovery as people would lead you to beleive.
    how do you imagine rrc. till i read ponniyin selvan i imagined him
    from sivaji's movie. after ponniyin selvan i imagine him as a gentle
    king who hurts no one. even refuses to plunder the country he
    enslaves for food. he would rather let his soldiers starve.
    sometimes a true history lover fels like screaming " will the real
    RRC please stand up?"

  • I remember 2 incidents vaguely...

    1) When the grand father of Tamil ( Vu Ve Sa ) reached
    a temple that kept the library of the Pandian King
    Sundara Pandian, he was informed that it was just
    burnt into ashes as they didnt have any purpose...

    2) A temple priest ( or a priestly man ) at Alwar
    Thirunagari ( it is a village between Tirunelveli and
    Tiruchendur with ancient temples ) possessed some palm
    leaf books and requested some scholars to take a
    look... No body in TN turned up, until somebody from
    Venkateshwara university... we dont know what was in
    those books,

    Recently a study of palm leaf books in possession of
    individuals in southern districts was taken and it was
    a big number... we dont know what is in them.. who
    will spend time / money to talk to these individuals,
    convince them to take a scanned copy, get it read and
    print / publish it....

    If we could get together and get the list from the
    govt body that did the census of palm leaf books,
    probably we could scan about 100 books during the
    summer vacation...
  • Is this the National palm leaf digitisation effort done by the Kanchi university also? Madan from our group or someone from our group did mention about such an activity that was/is done by Kanchi Kamakoti Univeristy also? Looks like we forgot that thread and an action that was supposed to come from that thread.

  • HI Venkat,

    Lets be the change that we talk of. This is what Gandhi would have done, if he was in this position. We are capable of doing good things with the right direction and purpose.

    Lets co-operate and take this thread into action. What would be your opinion on going after thiru mandira olais and the copper plates? It would be authentic enough to help us gleam more information that our supposed historians chose to forget and to ignore.
  • VK and others,

    There is every possibility that there can be valuable resources
    hidden in some private collection, but practically speaking its

    without proper maintenance, it will crumble to pieces in a few
    years. Preserving it for centuries - ruled out.

    Quoting uv.ve.sa, he says in his 'en sarithiram' that when he went
    in search of oolai chuvadis he was pained to hear that people have
    destroyed thousands of palm leaves either by burning or putting them
    in rivers. It seems people said they followed the tradition by which
    the palm leaves are supposed to be destroyed.

    Tamil thatha, with great anguish quotes that, this tradition of
    putting palm leaves in water or fire was done only when to old
    leaves are in the verge of destruction. People used to make a copy
    of the exisiting palm leaf and then destroy the old ones by putting
    in fire or water. But our later generations took only the half which
    was convinient to them (as we take all the convinient things from
    the west and leave out th good ones )

    In this way a lot of treasure has alredy been lost.

    Coming to the point of preserving the existing ones - already govt.
    organizations are working on it. Scanning and preserving the
    leaflets are not an easy joke. Whatever collection has been made,
    its still not yet catalogued. A three year project has been
    commissioned by the central govt. only to catalogue the available
    leaflets - like whats the name of the book, whos the author etc.
    After this it has to be read, deciphered, if relevant published etc.
  • > Quoting uv.ve.sa, he says in his 'en sarithiram' that when he went
    > in search of oolai chuvadis he was pained to hear that people have
    > destroyed thousands of palm leaves either by burning or putting

    even a big part of the thiru murais on olai suvadis in the locked
    room at thillai were destroyed by termites.
    this may be the legend but then some sundarar devarams stop abruptly
    lending some credibility to this legend.
    the legend is that rrc and nambi andar nambi rescued the olai suvadis
    and etched them on copper.

    there are 275 established devara sthalams most possibly listed by
    the discovery of the last two are remarkable.
    in one shiva temple near koradacheri somebody removed the lime
    plaster on the stone walls and a new devaram was in the kalvettu.
    this temple was added to the list.
    and later another devaram was discovered for a temple called
    kiliyanoor but the temple has not been identified.
  • I accept your point of veiw easwaran....nature sells less than Jeffrey archer that doesnt make archer better than all those scientists who have written in nature
  • our supposed historians chose to forget and to

    Nanda , you make me sound like a terrorist.
    I have nothing against historians.
    have you read "Colas" by sastri. a phenomenal piece of work.( Can
    some one tell me why he used that spelling often?)
    its just that whenyou see similar histories of other nations in an
    equivalent period you feel frustrated.
    and to fill the lacuna here legends, poems and hearsay have crept in.

    what do you think of france or england in comparison. we would
    automatically say they were babarians when we were essayists and
    just look at the history of england and france in the time of RRC.
    a few years before or after.
    the capet dynasty of france has such a detailed history till 1350 or
    so and after that their geneology can be traced to the bourbons of
    in england the battle of hastings. some time in 1066. there are
    records on what happened every hour in the battle.
    we dont know where rrc's battle fields were. we cant write more than
    three lines on any of his battle.
    italy, vatican, the vikings all have had pucca records during the
    same period.

    proper recording in indian history starts with the muslim invasion.
    the khilgis had a daily diary of court affairs. printed books are
  • COLAS was how it was mentioned in Ancient Travellers' travellogues.

    Megasthanis and the like.. sps
  • True SPS

    the pandyas clearly wiped out traces of the cholas.the khiljis wiped
    out pandya records. happens in history.
    khusro and wassaf of the turkish army record 512 elephants loaded
    with looted gold and precious stones. so it must have been a very
    wealthy land.
    but the arguments now are whether we have enough evidence to write
    our history completely with out referring fictional sources.

  • Hi Venkat,

    Sorry for making you feel that way...
    We need to understand that our resources are available and locating and tapping into resources is going to be a phenomenoal task. Are we upto task? Do we have the motivation and the commitment to do it.

    You would have definitely known about the National archival mission to map the palm leaf manuscript across India. I did see only very few tamil works. There are definitely resources/societies/individuals who are officially or have personally committed to such endeavours.

    Kalinga Bala had posted information on one such endeavour in virudhachalam, so why not talk to them?
  • I dont remember which body did that. But a list of
    palm leaf books and the individual address should be
    available with ASI, Chennai.

    We can take a car, a laptop and a scanner. Go to a
    village / city that has maximum, talk to the village /
    city heads and impress upon them - knock each door
    that has a palm leaf book. Which ever door that opens
    up, we can scan the palm leaves and give it back to
    them. Probably we can carry a govt order or
    instruction to help us with that.

    But who will organize such an attempt ? Need to have
    contacts at high places.

    Reading the palm leaf is another task!
  • Dear Satish et al,

    Reading the palm leaf can happen much later.

    We need to urgently help scan all available palm leaf
    books in a digital format.

    Once preserved digitally, things can happen much later
    - whenever people / funds are available.

    Since our people dont know the value of such items,
    and since they can be destroyed anytime, digitization
    is to be done at high priority.

    If we could help from our group in that, it will be
    great. Our group will be remembered in history!
  • Dear Venkat,

    > u Ve Sa got a lot of palm leaf details from
    > mithilaipatti in
    > chettinad on shaivism.

    Thats why I insist that Chettinad is the last resort.
    Hidden treasures ( ie valuable palm leaves, copper
    plates and the like. Not just ivories & jewellery )
    could be still found in Chettinad homes. It could even
    change the history. How about, if we find a lost
    Sangam Tamil literature in a Chettinad home?

    Somebody influential like you could only do it. Think
    about it... I'm willing to join you in this venture. I
    can also spend some money in this quest.
  • Links given below will give some information on the National Mission for
    Manuscripts. There was a flurry of activity in 2003/04, and manuscripts
    numbering in laks from Karnataka, Gujarat (maximum) and other states
    were identified from individuals for digitization. But now, there is not
    much news about its activities. Even the web sites are not updated. The
    most recent news I have seen, (last week), the National Centre for
    Performing Arts, the body entrusted with the project, froze distribution
    of funds to the manuscript mission, citing mal practices in withdrawal
    and spending. Let that be.

    In the early days, there was tremendous response, and teams visited a
    large number of villages/towns and collected manuscripts from
    individuals for digitization. They were overwhelmed by the quantity of
    manuscripts available, all over India. The momentum slackened and there
    was no publicity after some time. Not sure, how the manuscripts
    collected and digitized will be made available with proper indexing and
    search facility. I doubt whether the mission can mange this, with its
    inertia, availability of domain specific experts and facilities.

    My only sore issue is: our inability to have the evidence in a decoded
    printed format in our hands, is no justification to question our
    forefather's lack of historical sense and make fun of them. People like
    Madan who reach a wider reading public, must be sensitive about this.

    Unless the documents are available to a large group of committed and
    devout researchers for study and deciphering, what ever is collected may
    also be lost. Only IT savvy youngsters like in this group, can find a
    solution for this 'himalayan' problem.


  • hi;
    just remembered something. A couple of weeks backmy father and i went to
    Udayalur agrahaaram for a period of 2 days. We visited most of the
    agrahaaram houses there. In one of the houses i saw a big bunch of really
    really old palm leaves. The owner is living in Chennai so the house is
    uninhabitated. The palm leaves were quite dusty and the owner said it
    contained Ramayana. It was really old. The other houses are also really old
    so im suer there must such leaves in the other homes. There must such leaves
    in other houses too. Maybe we can scan them then and there. We might be
    saving something.
  • Yes, Chettinad may be treasure-trove. Recently, in a Pothigai TV
    programme about old items sold by chettinad households, there was one
    cupboard full of palm manuscripts.
  • -Hi all
    most of the olai suvadis are chettiar accounts and transactions.
    the dowry of my mother was recorded in an olai suvadi and i have it.i
    also used to collect the eluthaanis but then i lost interest.
    chettinad also has some of the earliest books published in tamil.
    those books could be copies of the olai suvadis.
    but some 100 year old books have been located by my father in
    devakottai and i hope to see them and acquire them on 15 th and 16th
    of this month.
    i could courier them straight to v.ks house.he seems so eager.
  • Thats very good. Please use your influence in all
    Chettinad villages / cities. There could be other
    interestig palm leaf texts as well. The Chettiars
    patroned poets and scribes and also helped literature
    to survive the after math of the muslim invation.
  • Besides, how did the Chettiars maitain accounts and
    transactions ? Thats an interesting study. Perhaps
    even it could help business communities to unearth
    business practices, process and systems used by our
    ancient traders who brought so much of wealth to our
    nation.. who knows there could be learning for modern
    and future generations as well...
  • Hi Rahul,

    Can you talk to them again and win their confidence
    ?We can scan these palm leaves and give it back to

    It is a service to our nation and our duty too... they
    should believe it and allow digitization of the palm
    leaf books.

    We should also request them to donate it to a museum
    where it could be properly preserved.

    Please contact me, if any progress is made... We can
    do this from our group.
  • Let us do digitization, indexing and reading of 100
    palm leaf books from our group. It is a task we can

    Any buyers of this idea?
  • >
    > Besides, how did the Chettiars maitain accounts and
    > transactions ? Thats an interesting study.

    You should read the book "caste and capitalism in colonial india"
    some of the text is on the net. i'll try to give you a link.

    > even it could help business communities to unearth
    > business practices, process and systems used by our
    > ancient traders who brought so much of wealth to our
    > nation.. who knows there could be learning for modern
    > and future generations as well...
  • Dear all
    have really been very busy last few weeks
    there are just a few points I thought ill raise

    1.Lack of evidence doesnt mean the theory is wrong before dismissing it....
    2. there is evidence agreed its in bits and pieces.....heard of something called TROY???
    the whole history is based on Homer's writing....there are tourist spots in turkey which claim that was troy...there is an alternate group which claim Britain was troy and the whole war was for Tin..yes the metal but thats regardedas part of history
    Heard of King Authur the Brits celebrate his legend as history....I dont think all that bits about the Vikings and Saxons but they are proud of it and have written volumes of what is available.....
    We lack that commitment and we constantly criticise the ones who do it...
    I heard somebody say...
    ''success is when you built a castle out the stones thrown at you''
    I think thats where we are unique and are trying to do something great HATS OFF and GOOD LUCK
  • When Europeans base their history on literature, thats hailed and we
    say we should learn from them. But Sri, there are so many Indians
    who say that Mahabaratha and Ramayana are just literature and cannot
    be treated as History. Strong belivers of Hindus will realise that
    they are not mere fiction but history indeed.

    Lots and lots of stories are spread across the vedas, which are
    brushed aside as pure fiction by many pagutharivalars. Even some
    three years back, we had a heated argument in our group regarding
    vedas and many of the vedic beliefs were criticised as being pro-
    brahminical. Same lack of evidences were pointed out then, to subdue
    the supremacy of vedas.

    So where we stand? are we behaving like politicians who bend the
    rules based on the benefits?

    I am not a regular follower of Madan's qa sessions, but whatever I
    have read, even for the simplest of the answers a lot of research
    has been done. When such a learned person says something, we cannot
    brush aside them just like that.

    I accept that we do have information in bits and pices. Many have
    been destroyed by rivalry, either pandya invasion or muslim
    invasion. My point is when Indians or the historians turn blind to
    accept many of the facets of Indian Hisotory/Hinduism (eg. to accept
    the aryan invasion theory as myth, because if accepted, Hinduism
    become native to India), will the same Indians or historians accept
    the literature or our commitment to show our supremacy?

    We cant have double standard you see.
  • Hi Sri
    just to continue the debate

    > 1.Lack of evidence doesnt mean the theory is wrong before
    dismissing it...

    what theory are we talking about. we all agree that the cholas were
    great. otherwise we wouldnt be here in the first place.

    > We lack that commitment and we constantly criticise the ones who do

    extravagant praise does a lot more damage than critiscm.
    I wish somebody would translate kamals answer and post it in the
    group. then people can decide for themselves whether it was a
    "Sattaiyadi for madan " that you christened it.
    do you beleive kamal's mail was a fit answer to madans question
    if you recall
    kamal quoted from poetry ( which was precisely what madan said)
    kamal was throwing around hearsay tidbits like the "chola pass"
    for most of the time kamal was talking about a small clan in remote
    tamilnadu. in what way has the geneology of the pazhuvur clan
    drastically shaped tamil history? in fact kamal was talking about
    something he was strong at. though it was not even remotely connected
    with the question being asked.
    lastly you saw kamals wordings. he asks madan " how can you say
    karikalan did not go to the himalayas. can you prove that he did not
    when somebody is asking you prove a point do you ask him "can you
    prove its not true? thats not how true sciences operate.

    the answer stirred up passions that tend to blind us.
    it was not a fit answer to the question asked.in fact it didnt even
    resemble an answer.
    calling it in all dramatic wordings as a "bagiranga kaditham" will
    not help. it should have the stuff within.
    everybody who has spent time on the tamil history knows there are
    huge lacuna. why do want to hide behind passions of patriotism.
    those will put us behind politicians who make their living by
    stirring up such stuff.
  • > Heard of King Authur

    sure Sri. lots about him.
    and not all britons take him as a hero or even as one who existed

    here's a tidbit on the king and his round table.( YOU live in a very
    honest country , I envy you)

    The "history of arthur " by Geoffrey of Monmouth contains little
    trustworthy historical fact, and many scholars are tempted to agree
    with William of Newburgh, who wrote around 1190 that "it is quite
    clear that everything this man wrote about Arthur and his successors,
    or indeed about his predecessors from Vortigern onwards, was made up,
    partly by himself and partly by others, either from an inordinate
    love of lying, or for the sake of pleasing the Britons."

    a historian of 1190 disputes the history of their greatest legend.
    wish we had more like him around.
    debate is healthy for progress. if one feared critiscm you wont go
    the next step.
  • Dear Satish
    I totally agree with you..
    Part of the problem is Mahabaratha,ramayana and vedas are classic works andare based on history....if they are not then vyasa has one hell of a crative power...
    I think the problem with them to be treated as history is that they have become more than history in indian minds...as divine works..

    Dear Venkat
    I agree that brits speak the truth and publish but as far as athe common man...arthur is still a legend..
    thats the like to tintagel castle ...where visitors are welcomed with searching for arthur...

    this is a part of english heritage...

    I agree and disagree regarding kamls response...the sangam literature he chose was to counter the statement poets just dranke ale and wrote lies...

    I agree with Chola pass evidence or lack of evidence

    But I still stand my ground that a respected author should have been dismissive

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