Just now I remember, isn't Madan himself mentions Rajendran in his Vandarkal Vendrarkal as during Rajendran's northern conquest he narrowly misses Timur(or one of the many invaders)???
hi; just a question ignorant though it may seem. The concept of Lord Shiva's abode being Kailas has been there for centuries even before Rajendra. Now Kailasam has been described as a snow capped mountain (i hope im right). For this concept to have originated somebody long before Rajendra must have gone and viewed the Himalayas and then he or she must have been inspired to elaborate on this concept. I dont think there are any snow capped mountains uptil Shimla, right? When exactly did this concept originate and who first bought it to light?
hi rahul not ignorant but a question that has puzzled people
nobody in tamil nadu in those days could have seen ice or snow( except for hail storms)
how did thy know of a snow covered hill?
and of recent i had the luck of seeing a rare video of the inner parikrama of kailas taken by a goan boy. the main mount has caves carved in it just like ajantha ellora. people must have lived on the hill in better climates.
I wonder how Madhan justifies his views. Doesn't the presence of ports like Thondi signify that the kings of that era had contacts with other countries? Upon regularly trading with one country like China one of our kings must surely have piad a visit to his most valuable customer. Even though the goods have changed the mentality of the trader still remains the same. I have read that Indian steel called "Ukku steel" was very famous during that era. These swords werre much sought after in Persia and much of Europe. The sword forgers were based in Thanjavur, Madurai, etc. The Sword of Tipu Sultan is supposed to be a great example of Ukku Steel expertise. I have read that we have been leaders in steel from the 3rd century till about 17th-18th century before the British. Now we're slowly becoming leaders again after loosing ground during the 18th and 19th centuries. Doesn't all this say that kings of Southern India had regularly travelled abroad for trade and conquests?
yes prior to chola ,pallava,chera and pandyas are having regular connected with southeast asia up to compodia. recently one buddist scholer whom i met in bhubaneswar explains their trade acivities in 6th century, even orissa palur was famous those period.
Upon regularly trading with one country like China one of our kings must surely have piad a visit to his most valuable customer. Even though the goods have changed the mentality of the trader still remains the same. ======================================
I think madan was talking about conquests. not trade. he was also propably talking about a himalayan stone for kannagi statue and ganges water for consecratin of temples.
regarding meeting invaders from central asia and afganistan
these are the approximate dates of the invaders in india
1008: Mahmud defeats the Rajput Confederacy (Ujjain, Gwalior, Kalinjar, Kannauj, Delhi, and Ajmer) and captures the Shahi treasury at Kangra in the Punjab Hill States.
1192-97 delhi- Gujarat fell to Muhammad Ghori's armies
1394. Timur entered Delhi and the city was sacked, destroyed, and left in a mass of ruins
I'm not very knowledgeable, but if I may add a little piece of information to this interesting thread: I have read that one of the 18 siddhas, Bogar, is supposed to have travelled to China and that he is revered and prayed to there, but probably under a different name.
Just a thought why Madan could have said tamil kings history is not worth writing. Nobody in the world will refute if some one says that Alexander conquered the world. Similarly the Muslim conquest too has a solid written proof. But if he takes tamil kings as a subject of his books, if he talks about Chola history, about the conquest the kings made, there will be huge protest from Madurai (this is just for an example I am saying), and if talk about Pandyas, then there will protest about that from Thanjavur.
May he is just trying to avoid those controversies.
Also all, I have once contacted him with one of my mail id, shall I try to contact him about this? or may be I could invite him to our group. What say???
Dear SB Sir I beg to differ its not an individuals opinion but an opinion with a wide reach...I think as a group we have to challenge him in his own forum Lets not talk about Ariya padai kadantha ...or Imayavaramban and Karikal Chozhan...
Dear SPS sir, I��m a very silent observer of this group and enjoy the discussions and topics which are brought in here. Being living in Germany and not very good in computers I am not able to do a lot like others offer.
To this topic who went farthest I happen to remember in Mahabaratha that a Pandya and Chola king travelled upto Kurushektra to take part in the war between Pandavas and Kauravas. Infact there is a small footnote about with whic��h valour the panadya king fought against the Kauravas.
Apart from south indian inscription ,epigrapica indica how many volumes related to tamil history published so for?
Historians writing based on the old recards only, not on the new findings on so many inscription on stone and copper plates due to urbanisation,destroyal of forests,mass infrastructure projects in india for the last few years.
at mysore lot of stone & copper plateinscriptions are lying with epigraphy department for editing.
according to my field studies and intraction with various epigraphists and museum people,and my personal experience with ex rulers family and old village people, still 50% of real history not revealed so for .
utterkasi was a dream place for all south indians from kings,rishis to poor people on those days.
rishigesh is a entry place for all shivalaya kings .
every one accepting that there is a missing link in our past?
why not our group will try on some thing which possible due to our communication network.
we are always try to comment on other version,why dont us try to give new version on this subject.
I feel our network is highly litreated group. using our friends circle on primary source of history field ,is it possible from our end.
following is the one more example from my side
The rule of the Somavamsis in Kosala collapsed by the invasion of Rajendra Chola in 1022 A.D. and after that the territory came under the rule of the Telugu Cholas. In 1038 A.D. Vajrahasta V of Ganga dynasty became powerful in Parlakhemundi region and after the death of Rajendra Chola in 1044 A.D. he assumed independence and occupied the hilly territory including Koraput and Kalahandi.
another surpraise is that Lankeshwari temple at junagarh in the sonepur region when it was ruled by the last somavamsi monarches and later on by the telugu cholas.in the historic period rajendra chola 1012-1044 Ad had conquered cylon according to the thirumala rock inscriptions issued in his 13th year 1024 ad.
Rajendra cholans group under general palavaroyan defeated and killed indraratha the somavamsiking of kosala region at adinagar. it might have been possible that the deity lankeshwari was brought to orissa during thistime as the chola army occupied the area and administrated the system of entire region.
in the epigraphic records telugu cholas described as karikalavalavan , cholakula kamalakalita vikasa bhaskarah ( the sun who makes the lotus bud of cholakula bloom) kaverinatha, dinakarakulanandanah (scion of solor dynasty), sakala kosaladhiswara, varaurapura adhisvara (lord of uraiyur)
allready i started touch with my history congress and archeological friends to get more information on this regards.
arangasami from gopi who is a researcher on inscriptions in tamilnadu assured me to send more information on this issue
while examining who went so far we should also see who came so far.
the first I would think on an organised invasion was pulikesi
can SPS tell us whether present day vathapi is?
pulikesi's son kalki tells us went up to nelveli and was defeated by nedumaran.
amongst the muslims malik kafur and ulugh khan( later tuklak) came between 1312-1322
then after the collapse of the vijayanagar it was a free for all. mughals, rajputs, maratas have ruled senji chatrapathi sivaji came as far as chennai.
and the europeans in tamilnadu. dutch, danish, portugese, french, british. a wide plethora of invaders indeed. venketesh
chatrapathi sivaji came as far as chennai. ==============================
Hi,
I thought that Sivaji came till Thanjavur, and I remember being told something like that when I went to thanjavur museum.
And also after Pandiya's fall, most of tamil nadu were not under native rulers (i mean Nayakas, maratas and others) right. It is amazing Tamil and the people of the land survived all those years.