Yes shankar u r right. In the novel Nandhini was born to umai rani 2 years after Sundara chola returned to the Chola kingdom from Boodha thevu, so there is no way that Sundara chola is the father of nandhini.
as for as the nandhini character in poonyin selvan is concerned some tells that she was the daughter of sundara chola and some tells that she was the daughter of veera pandya butin due corse of time when there was a conversation between aditya karigalan and nandhini in in the kadambur aranmanai she told to aditya karikalan that she was the lover of the king veera pandya so what is the conclusion for that
The more we get details through literary and inscriptional evidences and the kind of discussions we have been having for the past 4 - 5 years, I am sure we all agree that KALKI is a MASTER STORY TELLER and that he avoided contraversial things for speculation :
Apart from Who murdered Aditha Karikalan, Eazham (marital ?) connections with Chozhas are touched thro" Mandhakini & Vani .. so are the Pandya connections !
to zero on an equivalent character to Nandhini .. Pazhuvur Nakkan PANCHAVAN MADEVI would have come closer, but Nandhini is portraited as ANTI -HEROINE ! VEERANARAYANI - Queen - w/o Parantaka from Chera province - might have been another inspiration !
First, as per the book Nandhini is born to oomai rani, but the antecedents of the father is unknown. Only other character that provide inputs is the Karuthiruman, whom vandithiyathevan meets in the prison. Nandhini is veera pandiya's lover and it is conclusively described.
I beg to disagree that it is conclusive that Veerapandiyar is Nandini is lover. No body has to agree with the other side of the argument unless it comes from the Great Kalki himself. He is only one who can tell conclusively. I think it is a master storke by Kalki to leave it unconclusive so that we are still dicussing that and it will go on I guess.
hi according to kalki, I think veerapandiyan and nandini meet only once ( when he is mortally injured and barges into her hut) towards the end kalki goes on to say bhujangan and nandini are twins and children of veerapandiyan.
When Aditya recalls his beheading of Veerapandiya, he recalls Nandhini saying that Veera pandiya is her lover. Again Nandhini being born to Veera Pandiya is a doubtful statement, an Oedipus Rex episode, I beg to differ because Kalki was better cultured so as not mix up his characters.
hi kalki contradicts himself quite often which can be expected because he was writing one segment weekly.
my guess was he realised this at one point and stopped his novel.
except for karuthiruman here are no real witnesses for these things. and nandini really has no time for this romance. she is chucked out of the chola palace by sembian madevi and the rest of the time spends her life with the gurukkal family in pandiyanadu. in the mean time veerapaandiyan was either on the battle field or on the run
karuthiruman accepts nandini and amara bujankan as twins. and says amarabujangan was veera paandiyans son
an injured veerapandiyan might have mistaken nandini to have been her mother oomai rani for there is a marked facial resemblance.
Kalki was very clear in thought. I just completed reading the book published by Thendral Nilayam, Chidambaram. In the epilogue, as an answer to Question No 7, Kalki answers that Nandini informs RR about the secret of her birth and who Killed Aditya. So he knew about the secret or doesn't he? Or he does not want to inform the reader about it to leave them gussing? A good kept secret.
Speilberg is one of the renowned Directors who has a lots of credits to him. His movies leave a lasting impression on the minds of people all over the world.
I have read long back that, in one of Indiana jones movies, while showing the world map, Thailand is also shown. But during the period of Indiana Jones, Thailand was called Siam and this is listed under the dirctorial mistakes of great directors. (Also remember a picture from Troy where an aeroplane is shown )While watching Indiana Jones movie, I forgot to notice this.
So yanaikkum adi sarukkum. Even Great people do err...and Kalki is no exception and is well understood by the mamoth task he was handling. A story spanning 3 years, the whole world closely watching, handling the circulation and editorials of 'Kalki' magazine.....we talk about the pressure on Tendulkar....Kalki should have been in sucha a pressure then.
venkatesh already have mentioned this, Nandini's birth and romance are confusing. Similarly, the oomayan speaks through out two chapters, as pointed out by Venkatesh long back.
So here and there Kalki missed out some loose ends, and we are still fighting on it. :) pavam mannichi vittudunga avara. edho theriyama ezhuthitaru....
the classic hollywood movie Ben hur ( It went on to win eleven Academy Awards, including best picture for 1959, a feat equaled only by Titanic and The Lord of the Rings ). the movie has a charriot race scene in roman times that goes on on and on. it was world famous.considered to be one of the most spectacular action sequences ever filmed. Filmed long before the advent of computer-generated effects, it took over three months to complete, using 8000 extras on the largest film set ever built, some 18 acres
but then movie enthusiasts reportedly discovered in that scene- a smalll red car moving in the opposite direction
also in one initial scene jesus being born in a stable is shown.In the Bethlehem scene early, a young Holstein Cow appears. This breed was created in Germany in the 19th century, so its appearance at Jesus' birth would have been impossible.
Sumeetha and Pavitra have presented interesting insights into Nandhini's parentage. My full appreciation to their efforts. What I'd like to present is an alternative.
* Pavitra says Serial novels (thodarkathai) suffer from some form of inconsistency and that Kalki did'nt plan to make Veera pandiyan - nandini's father and this was a later decision. Unfortunately, this is not true ! Nandhini mentions very clearly that Veera pandiyan is her lover -not only in the first part (Pudhu vellam) (Nandhiniyin Kaadhalan) but even also in the fourth part ! Just before the murder of Aditya, The head of Pandiyan appears before nandhini - and she exclaims and talks in hallucination like this " Oh Dear ! Have you come ? Welcome !....and so on ...". In fact if you carefully read the novel, you'll find that whenever Nandhini talks about Veera Pandiyan she always says that he is her lover - Even at that critical moment when Pandiya is in great danger!
* There is only one place where there is a contradiction - when she has her final talk with Aditya. Even here, Kalki does not provide this directly. He writes like this : Nandhini said ..."My father is .....father is................." Later Vandhiyathevan says to Kundavi that he overheard this conversation and heard that she was mentioning the name of Veera pandiya here. Now, why the author does not provide this fact directly during Nandhini's final dialogue and provides the info at a much later stage ? I think there is a very very definite purpose and I'll try to answer this question in another mail (Kindly ref my last lines in this mail)
* Thus Kalki very deleberately presents a very consistent picture throughout the Novel that Veera pandiyan is indeed Nandhini's Lover.
* The arguements that support the fact that VPandiyan is Nandhini's father come from Karuthiruman. But please remember - Karuthiruman is totally inconsistent in his story. At one point of time he says he fathered nandhini! - This fellow has no interest in cholas and is very faithful to pandiyas. - There is no reason for him to reveal such a big secret to Vandhiyathevan, that too during a time pass chat ! Remember that he deserts vandhiyathevan instantly ! - Thus all of his statments are to be rejected. Infact this fellow is more dangerous that all others and there is more to him that what meets the eye ( I plan to write about him in a separate mail - sometime in the future).
* In the conclusion (mudivurai) he wrote for PS ( I don't know whether all of you have read the conclusion. It is very important for the novel as a whole), Kalki says : "Just before her death, Nandhini reveals her birth secret to Arulmozhi..." If Kalki felt that the secret has already been revealed through Vandhiyathevan he need not have written these lines at all. The fact is that Kalki deliberately confused the readers - he had many more ideas about the characters them selves and possibly had an idea of continuing the story even further !
Now the question is : WHO COULD HAVE FATHERED NANDHINI, IF NOT VEERA PANDIYAN ?????
I plan to take this topic in the near future. Meanwhile your comments on this mail are most welcome.
Thanks for the input. I am of the opinion, that Nandhini's father could be of pandya origin or relations.. for that matter even cholas are related Pandyas and chera, so its an maaman-machan sandai.. or is it could a dowry problem?
Amarabhujan cannot make a claim to the pandya throne with pandya abathuthaviyagal..
Nandhini is also called "Amma" by Veera pandiyan's son.. the pandya heir... so there is no chance that Nandhini is veera pandiyan 's daughter.
in the same post script to the novel its said that amarabhujangan dies in a war with rrc much later.
so he had been accepted a pandya heir. then his twin???
some of us should take pains and chronologically list nanthini's life
Birth: in the garden in senthan amudhans hut to uumai naachiyaar.
as a child she is handed to alwarkadiyan for bring up by the prime minister.
childhood; chola palace where she is teased by kunthavai and tormented by sembiyan mathevi. youth. the inevitable happens. aaditya falls in love with her and nanthini is banished to a gurukkals house in pandya naadu. then comes a scene when she mees a violent aditya a who kills veerapandiyan before her
ravithasan also talks to nandini about the past when he says that she was bound hands and foot by pandya apathuthavis and was about to be thrown into the funeral pyre of veera pandyan.( a scene similar to 3 musketeers)
in the mean time aalvarkku adiyaan also reminicences about he and nandini going from temple to temple singing prapandham songa
finally she is seen on the road by periya paluvettaraiyar and marries him
THALAI SUTHUTHU.
how did she have time to do all this and be at so many places.
if you ask me Nandini was not only kalki's magnum but also his sarukkal.
Wow, that was a wonderful synopsis of nandini Venkat Sir.
Some of the points that I would like to add. Before Periaya Pazhuvettair kills himself , he states Bhujangan was the heir of Veerapandyan and if their attempt to bring him to the throne would have given the kingdom to their mortal foe.
And also when Kundavai and PS realises that Bhujangan and Nandini could not be their fathers children, she will mention that they could be VP's children.
I think during the conversation between Kundavai and VD (last but one chapter), Kalki brings up the subject of Nandini's paternity to give a hint of mystery and lasting effect to the reader
I think he was one of the best charecters created by kalki for ps.
one man who achieves so much.
restores the rightful heir to two dynasties.the cholas and the pandyas saves uthama on his birth itself save oomai nachiyar from drowning. so much and that too for a guy who comes so less in the text. poor man spends his life in a gaol. but his neighbours( at least 2 of them go up in life) senthan becomes the emperor and vanthiyathevan becomes the raja vittu mappilai.
we have already discussed that long back .but for your benefit.
murugaiyyan s/o thiyaga vidangar, brother of pungkuzhali, and husband of rakkamaal( niyaabakam varuthaa?) is introduced as a physically challenged charecter in earluier chapters but talks volumes later in the thiruvarur elephant scene.
kalki half way tries to rewrite it as a henpecked silent husband but had already commited himeself
also in one place kalki uses the words mugalayar when there was anothe 300 yeares for babar to be born. in one place he makes sembiyan mathevi ask a group of bhaktas " which malapaaadi" and then later says as is true in history that she was born in malapaadi itself
look into the thread called ERRORS OF KALKi for such contributions from all members
Jusrt to share the happy news I have finished my Exit exam in my speciality yesterday hence the absencre all for those blessed three Letters CTh after my FRCSEd
A. Please refer to Karuthiruman Kathai chapter (part 5). According to the statement made by him the following can be summarised:
1. That he saved Mandakini from lighthouse of Kodiakkari.
2. He met possibly Aniruddha and his men ( a statement corroborated by Sundara Chola as he sent in his minister & friend to search for her).
3. He took her to a nearby island for money. She did not recognise even her father as she was having amnesia. At the same time he also gives a lift to man, who turned out to be the Pandyan king. What was he doing in mid sea? Why he went to Kodiakkarai? If at he wanted to go to Lanka he could have easily crossed the sea at Ramesvaram? Only Kalki can answer this strange coincidence.
4. Karuthiruman leaves Veerapandya, the girl with amnesia (or mentally unsound) and goes on to meet the Lankan king. Within few days Veerapandya joins Karuthiruman at the court of Lankan king. Pandyan king offers gold to him for the girl at Bhutathivu.
5. Karuthiruman meets her again within few days at Kodiakkari. Her father had already died.
6. She regains her memory. She is found to be pregnant. She delivers the twins - Nandhini and Old Madurantakan.
7. So when did she become pregnant? BY the Pandyan king when she was not in her senses? If so, Veerapandyan got the deserving punishment at the hands of Aditya.
8. She could not have become a mother due to Karuthiruman as he left immediately after dropping her at Bhutativu.
B.In the chapter 62 Etti Painthathu
1. OId Mathurantakan enquires about his father, fearing that he may claim the right. But Karuthiruman, informs him that he is a Rajakumaran and he himself is the servant of his father - obviously Veerapandyan. he was pleasantly surprised after having informed he is not the rightful heir to Chola throne.
2. In the Chapter 64 Unnmaiyai Chol, Alwakadiyan extracts some information from Karuthiruman.
C. In Chapter 90 Ponmazhai Pozhinthatu, in the long conversation between VVD and Kundavai, she expresses a doubt over this issue - Veerapandyan being the father of Nandini. VVD confirms that the name was uttered by Nandini, hence Paluvettaraiyar got angry with her. Again Kundavai express a doubt whether a lady could call her father a lover?. VVD substantiates that it is the character of Nandhini and the situation warranted as Aditya was so hot headed at that time.
What all this means?
1. Kalki wanted this issue to be live and unsettles one right through like the secret about the actual assassin of Aditya. These two are the core issues of the whole story and all the events leads to it until he changes the track and pleased at the sacrifice of RR. Perhaps a later thought.
2. Perhaps he introduced the character Karuthiruman only to confuse this issue. He suggests that Mandakini became pregnant when she was not in her senses. Both Veerapandya and Karuthiruman hardly spent few days with her. How could they all be the father of her children?
3. In fact Kalki, being the master story teller, he wanted to highlight the spoilt mind of Nandhini due to her lonely childhood and the insults heaped at her. Nandhini must have developed a complex (can any Psychologist name it), where she wanted to become a prince/queen. She must have been afraid about her parentage so she tried to unknot the secret. Perhaps by establishing her royal lineage she will be on stronger ground to fight Kundavai. Therefore she repeatedly believed or rather prayed Veerapandya was her father.
4. So Kalki wanted all of us to keep guessing. Even Nadhini was not so sure, when she told what she believed to the truth to RRC.
As I said it is best kept secret of the novel. A prerogative of any story teller is to leave loose ends. A tightly written story becomes history, not a historical novel. Kalki is not writing history for that matter. He drew a firm line as an historical novel writer and historian. His post script proves it.
> 3. In fact Kalki, being the master story teller, he wanted to highlight > the spoilt mind of Nandhini due to her lonely childhood and the insults > heaped at her. Nandhini must have developed a complex (can any > Psychologist name it), where she wanted to become a prince/queen. She > must have been afraid about her parentage so she tried to unknot the > secret. Perhaps by establishing her royal lineage she will be on > stronger ground to fight Kundavai. Therefore she repeatedly believed or > rather prayed Veerapandya was her father.
ravithasan was not a fool. why did he accept amarabhujangan as the pandya heir and also his leader? definitely he must be in the lineage of the pandyas. whatever is true for amarabhujangan is true also for nandini as they were twins.
I wish to one point about nandhini. As per my view nandhini had gread affection with her mother when she hear about her mother story she decided to kill both veerapandya( because he raped uumai nachiar ) and sundara cholan( because he left her mother)
Because once adithya discussed with vandya devan, he tells that he was not at all decided to kill VP when nandhini told him that he was her lover leave him., then only he got angry and killed VP. and he also told to vandya devan that it is also one of the drama of nandhini to kill veerapandya
i am not a student of law. as said earlier a keen student of common snese (or with common sense?). i leave it to you.
clarfy the following points as i do not have the copies of PS now on hand.
1. Who is the mother of young Pandyan king?
2. why he was just introduced for a flash moment in the novel by Kalki? T0 me he did so to keep the mometum in the serial (repeat serial novel). he needed a fulcrum on which the apathudavis can take a vow. there no point in just taking revenge. there must be a cause for revenge. that is hindu dharma. so the author introduced a child, every one gain sympathy in the cause for revenge . even some sane voice will accept that Nadhini is correct in planning to kill Aditya, the focul point of the story at that time.
3. when old Mathurantakan becomes a contender, he too must have been roped in by Ravidasan as he would be very happy play with two spades A. Modern management is all about Plan B. So the two contendenter are mutual Plan B in ravidasan's scheme. So Kalki allowed it be so and also to stand by the historical facts of war of succession to the Pandyan's throne . Am I correct?
4.May I add another point. nandhini was created just to add support to Kundavai character. In a plot where there is real no hero/heroine Vs Villain, when a plot focus on more around situations rather than characters, it imperative to create pairs of characters. VVD-Alwarkadiyan, Aditya-Rajaraja, Kundavai & her shadow Vanadi- Nandhini, Aniruddha-Paluvettaraiyar, Pathibendran-Kandamaran, many opposing minor characters. If you write a story with just Kundavai and her shadow Vanadi, it will be a drab Kundavai pampering RRC, teasing Vanadi, consulting the Kudanthai astrolgers, discussing religion with Sembiyan madevi. Kundavai character will lose its importance. So Nandhini was created by Kalki to highlight Kundavai.
hI sriraman first of all we should realise( however hurt we may feel) that KALKI COULD ALSO ERR. Kalki finds in history that two pandya kings are killed in the battle with the cholas. one with rrc and one with rjc. so he fits in two charecters.( this he mentions in the post script) due to their age diferences he has to make one a small boy.
> 3. when old Mathurantakan becomes a contender, he too must have been > roped in by Ravidasan as he would be very happy play with two spades
true. somewhere later in the book a chola appreciates ravithasdan who has now increased the number of contenders for the pandya throne.
> > 4.May I add another point. nandhini was created just to add support to > Kundavai character.
I think nandini was created to serve as a sex siren for the book. you cant have historical charecters like kunthavai or vanathi having a full blown romance with romantic( even erotic undertones) dialouges.
but when we analyse the fictional charecters created by kalki we see he was more at ease with them.he was able to go into their hearts and speak for them. even a minor charecter like manimekalai comes out with flying colours. pungkuzhali, senthan amudhan,maran,karuthiruman all are full of life ,like real charecters we see in everyday life.
Great answers, MrVenketesh. Im also of the opinion that Nandhini was added as a sex siren. We all know about the similarities between Alexander Dumas and Kalki. Kalki's Nandhini has a lot of similarities with Dumas' Milady De Winter (pardon me if i got the spelling wrong) of Three Musketeers.. Even the description of Nandhini by Kalki is similar to Dumas's description of Milady. Milady was also described by Dumas as an incredible beauty on whom anybody who set his eyes would fall in love (D'Artagnan in the ship to England). There is a similar situation with our hero Vandhiyethevan becoming speechless on seeing Nandhini. Nandhini did not have a Fleur De Lis but the event of Karikalan (lets not call him Aditya, Karikalan is more heroic) killing the pandya in the presence of Nandhini is probably Kalki's version of Fleur De Lis.
Nandhini was probably more glamorised to increase the readership circle. Probably the concept of "poison inside a beauty" was exciting to the youth of those days (it is still exciting now ;);)
Wondeful thread, hope we get more in this subject.
BTW before somebody crucifies me for talking about Dumas, let me make it clear that I strongly believe Kalki was way superior to Dumas in characterisation.
hello all, > 4.May I add another point. nandhini was created just to add support to > Kundavai character. In a plot where there is real no hero/heroine Vs > Villain, when a plot focus on more around situations rather than > characters, it imperative to create pairs of characters. > VVD-Alwarkadiyan, Aditya-Rajaraja, Kundavai & her shadow Vanadi- > Nandhini, Aniruddha-Paluvettaraiyar, Pathibendran-Kandamaran, many > opposing minor characters. If you write a story with just Kundavai and > her shadow Vanadi, it will be a drab Kundavai pampering RRC, teasing > Vanadi, consulting the Kudanthai astrolgers, discussing religion with > Sembiyan madevi. Kundavai character will lose its importance. So > Nandhini was created by Kalki to highlight Kundavai.
I think here's where Kalki and Chandilyan mainly differes and Kalki scores over with his characterization which makes a lasting impression upon the reader, just like Nandini, Kundavai and Vandiyathevan.
There are lots of similarities between Dumas and Kalki. I think this is a well known fact amongst the knowledgeable member of this group. Even the first scene where our hero Vandhiyathevan rides along the river Ponni is similar to D'Artagnan riding his funny looking horse in the first scene of 3 musketeers.
Also the scene where Vandhiyathevan takes on Arulmozhi without knowing who he is, is similar to D'Artagnan taking on each of the 3 Musketeers without knowing who they are.
These are small instances but i think the major portion of Nandhini's character is too close to Milady De Winter. Remember everybody who read 3 Musketters at one stage or the other fell in love with Milady, even when she is about to be executed Athos still loves her. Im sure every body (men folk only ;) ) who read PS must have fascinated by Nandhini in a similar fashion. Especially the way Kalki describes her during the night, its awesome!!
Before comparing the 2 great authors letrs understand that Dumas was never under any pressure while writing 3 Musketeers. Kalki had to deliver every week! Infact it is these errors who make the novel and man more fascinating.
Who wants to discuss about some 3 drunken idiots from France fighting a priest wearing a red robe or about a stupid French queen loosing her jewels in the Buckingham palace? PS is thousand times more complicated and fascinating.
Not suprisingly to every tamil male in your age group an example beautiful woman is either Vijayantimal or Padmini ;);) Now we all know how Nandhini in your mindset looks like ;);)
> > Before comparing the 2 great authors letrs understand that Dumas was never > under any pressure while writing 3 Musketeers. Kalki had to deliver every > week!
Not much difference Rahul The Count of Monte Cristo was originally published in the Journal des Débats in eighteen parts. Publication ran from August 28, 1844 through January, 1846. Complete versions of the novel in the original French were published throughout the nineteenth century.
The Three Musketeers was also first published in serial form in the magazine Le Siècle between March and July 1844
incredible! how many similarities there are between these authors.
Even the > first scene where our hero Vandhiyathevan rides along the river Ponni is > similar to D'Artagnan riding his funny looking horse in the first scene of 3 musketeers.
Hi Rahul,
if I remember right d'artagnan was also carrying a letter that he lost just like vanthiyathevan. (I think vanthiyathevan rides on the bank of kaveri/ ponni much later)
in count of monte cristo there is a prison scene where one charecter reveals a secret to his neighbour. a character called Abbé Faria Italian priest and sage; befriends Edmond while both are prisoners in the Chateau d'If, and reveals the secret of Monte Cristo to Edmond( the hero) so much like karuthiruman and senthan amudhan.
and nandini and milady had much in common
beautiful( hauntingly so), many charecters fall for her, and she has a secret.
venketesh
> > Also the scene where Vandhiyathevan takes on Arulmozhi without knowing who > he is, is similar to D'Artagnan taking on each of the 3 Musketeers without > knowing who they are. > > These are small instances but i think the major portion of Nandhini's > character is too close to Milady De Winter. Remember everybody who read 3 > Musketters at one stage or the other fell in love with Milady, even when she > is about to be executed Athos still loves her. Im sure every body (men folk > only ;) ) who read PS must have fascinated by Nandhini in a similar fashion. > Especially the way Kalki describes her during the night, its awesome!! > > Before comparing the 2 great authors letrs understand that Dumas was never > under any pressure while writing 3 Musketeers. Kalki had to deliver every > week! Infact it is these errors who make the novel and man more fascinating. > > > Who wants to discuss about some 3 drunken idiots from France fighting a > priest wearing a red robe or about a stupid French queen loosing her jewels > in the Buckingham palace? PS is thousand times more complicated and > fascinating. > > Regards > Rahul > > >
Xavier University (Cincinnati), and Auch city in france have a statue each for d'artagnan. must we also not have one for vanthiyathevan infact he was a real person full name Charles de Batz-Castelmore, Comte d'Artagnan (c. 16111673) like our vanthiyathevan and rose high in life ( though he did not become the emperor's brother- in law)
alexander dumas Alexandre Dumas, père, was a French writer, best known for his numerous historical novels of high adventure which have made him one of the most widely read French authors in the world. at age of 28 he participated in the revolution that ousted King Charles X ( so much like kalki) a trivia about his birth was that his grand mother was a negro slave. he was thus denied a burial with voltaire or hugo in pantheon of paris. as late as 2002 was his body moved. ,
4.May I add another point. nandhini was created just to add support to Kundavai character. In a plot where there is real no hero/heroine Vs Villain, when a plot focus on more around situations rather than characters, it imperative to create pairs of characters. VVD-Alwarkadiyan, Aditya-Rajaraja, Kundavai & her shadow Vanadi- Nandhini, Aniruddha-Paluvetta raiyar, Pathibendran- Kandamaran, many opposing minor characters. If you write a story with just Kundavai and her shadow Vanadi, it will be a drab Kundavai pampering RRC, teasing Vanadi, consulting the Kudanthai astrolgers, discussing religion with Sembiyan madevi. Kundavai character will lose its importance. So Nandhini was created by Kalki to highlight Kundavai.