• Hello all,

    I have a question.
    The present kallanai dam and the one which was built by karikaalan are
    same?

    Thanks in advance,
    Geethan
  • Yes, the same, there were some additions, thats all but thhe dam is same

    shankar
  • This may be a shocking news. But fact.

    Karikalan never built kallanai. Kaverikku iru puramum karai eduppiththaan.
    That's all. Kallanai was constructed during Nayak period. That was very
    small dam and today what we see is the expansion by british people. A
    student of Jawaharlal nehru university did a Ph.D on Kallanai and proved
    beyond any doubt that it was built by nayaks and subsequent expansions by
    british people.

    This doesn't mean that Tamils did not have ability to construct dams.
    Veerapandiyan constructed a dam across Kollidam river. There are
    inscriptions stating this in Lalgudi temple. The word 'Anai' itself is used
    in his inscription.
  • Long life Tamilans....!!! Keep the ball rolling!!! Thats all i can say. It is very interesting reading all the information discussed here. Keep up the good works because people like me love to know about tamil but lack of informations to share.

    VJ
    Malaysia
  • > Veerapandiyan constructed a dam across Kollidam river.

    Kamal,

    Any idea who is this veerapandiyan and what is the age of the
    inscription at lalgudi ? There are several veerapandiyas in the
    pandiyan history
  • Kamal,

    Where is this inscription in Lalgudi..?
  • Dear Kamal
    That is indeed shocking.....Every search says Karikalan built
    kallanai they give various time frames frm 300BC to 2 CE

    On what basis did they conclude tha karikalan did not built kallanai
    clearly there must have been some evidence.

    My understanding is there were no Meikeerthi or Seppedukkal...So all
    we have is poetic scriptures what do they say....?

    Second if they measured the chola land to device a ulagalanthan KOL
    then there must be some mention of watersources and dams...
    Is there any evidence?


    Sri
  • > My understanding is there were no Meikeerthi or Seppedukkal...So
    all
    > we have is poetic scriptures what do they say....?

    The sangam literature Pattinappaalai sung by uruthirang kannanar was
    solely sung in priase of Karikaal chola. It has no mention of
    Kallanai. We only understand that he strengthened the banks of
    cauvery.

    The esalam and other copper plates which mention karikala as one of
    the ancestors of cholas do not mention anything about kallanai.
    Usually it is customery to record the grandest achievements of their
    ancestors (sibi- sparrow, manu needhi - chariot etc)

    Off track : A mandapa was donated to kannanar by karikala during
    that time. Nearly 1000 years later, Sundara pandiya ransacked the
    whole of chola kingdom. He destroyed all forts, palaces etc. but
    left this one single mandapa untouched ! There is a detailed
    inscription in thiruvellarai - in the form of a tamil poem - which
    records this. Though it was a chola who donated the gift, it was a
    gift for a tamil poet - uruthirang kannanar - that's all pandiya
    considered !
  • Dear Gokul,Kamal and SPS

    so how did the myth of Karikalan katiya kalaania originate?

    Sri
  • Hi,
    I have written what I have known. I have tried to
    prove my point to some extent. You are most welcome to
    correct me if I'm wrong.
  • Interesting issues discussed
    But, Mr.Senthan Amudhan
    Why you are comparing Karikalan.... with others?
    He is from earlier Chola dynasty.... I think in 300 AD..... (I have
    to check for correct year)
    Kalanai is a great wonder, because it is the very OLD DAM (may be the
    oldest dam in earth) ....
    Jk
  • Hi Jeyakumar,
    I didn't compare Karikalan with others but I tried
    to answer a question which was raised in the group
    earlier.The question is Who built Kallanai is it Nayak
    Kings or Karikal Chola.B'cos some claim that karikalan
    just strenthened the bunds.So its not a comparison
    between Karikalan and others,but an clarification to
    prove that Karikalan should have built kallanai.
  • Ok Senthan
    Thx for your immediate reply
  • Emperor Karikal Cholan built kallanai is well known
    fact.

    After his Srilanka invasion, he brought around 15000
    slaves and engaged them to built the dam. Originally
    it was built to divert flooded water to save Puhar
    city. Diverted kollidam water used for irrigation
    system. Unfortunately great city of Puhar swallowed by
    sea.

    May be Nayak kings done some fortifications as British
    did during their respective times.

    I am not sure whether emperor Rajaraja Cholan built
    the big bull in the big temple or Nayak kings did.
  • i chanced on this post...the very beginning was intimidating -
    MYTH...


    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/05/myth-of-antiquity-
    of-tamil-kallanani-by.html

    Myth of Antiquity of Tamil --Kallanani by Karikalan

    Myth of Kallanani by Karikalan
    The Grand Anicut, also known as the Kallanai, is an ancient dam in
    Tamil Nadu state of south India. The Grand Anicut is the most
    ancient surviving irrigation work in Kaveri river delta. It is
    attributed to the Chola king Karikalan, and dates back to the 2nd
    century. It is considered the oldest water-diversion structure in
    the world still in use.
    A poet sings
    "Karikaalan kattivaithaan kallanai"

    Let us analyze the facts
    The sangam literature Pattinappaalai sung by uruthirang kannanar was
    solely sung in praise of Karikaal chola. It has no mention of
    Kallanai. We only understand that he strengthened the banks of
    cauvery.
    Thiruttani and Velanjeri Copper Plates
    Parantaka's plate is dated 932 A.D. It gives the names of the
    progenitors of the Chola line beginning with Vishnu, followed by
    Brahma, Marichi, Kasyapa, Surya and Usinara. Karikala, Sibi and
    Koccengannan.
    Karikala
    Three important events in the life of Karikala are mentioned.
    (1) He caused the crest of the Cholas marked on the slopes of
    Himalayas.
    (2) He raised embankments on either side of river Kaveri and
    controlled its flood
    (3) He made Kanchi a city of palaces.
    Udayendram plates
    Parantaka Chola's Udayendram plates mention only the name of
    Karikala without referring to his exploits.

    Hence Thiruttani and Velanjeri Copper Plates are perhaps the
    earliest Chola record to refer to the exploits of Karikala. Even
    though his conquests and building Kanchi palaces are as debatable
    let us see only Kallanai now.

    The copper plates which mention Karikala as one of the ancestors of
    Cholas do not mention anything about Kallanai. Usually it is
    customary to record the grandest achievements of their ancestors
    (Sibi- sparrow, Manu needhi - chariot etc)

    One more inscription throws a different light about uruthirang
    kannanar A mandapa was donated to kannanar by Karikala . Around 1200
    AD Sundara pandiyan ransacked the whole of chola kingdom. He
    destroyed all forts, palaces etc. but left this one single mandapa
    untouched! There is a detailed inscription in thiruvellarai - in the
    form of a Tamil poem – which records this. Though it was a chola who
    donated the gift, it was a gift for a Tamil poet - uruthirang
    kannanar - that's all pandiyan considered!
    Second if they measured the chola land to device an ulagalanthan
    KOL, then there must be some mention of water sources and dams.
    However there is no such evidence.

    Karikalan never built Kallanai. Kaverikku iru puramum karai
    eduppiththaan.That's all. Kallanai was constructed during Nayak
    period. That was verysmall dam and today what we see is the
    expansion by British people. Astudent of Jawaharlal Nehru University
    did a PhD on Kallanai and provedbeyond any doubt that it was built
    by nayaks and subsequent expansions byBritish people.

    If we analyze the date of Karikalan , we can come to a conclusion of
    around 9th century or later ,And the other Famous chola king Ko
    Chenkkannan praised in sangam literature built Jambukeshwarar Temple
    which still stands today is around 10th century AD, But the legend
    advances the date of sangam literatue to 2nd century AD without any
    basis.
  • Sorry to butt in. Legend and history are two streams. Legend does not
    change, but historical interpretations and conclusions keep changing and
    are challenged frequently. Helen and Troy was a legend; but it appears,
    archeological digs now support the legend. Legend is a memory imprint
    over several generations and era. History can be manipulated to suit the
    whims and bias of the historian; legends, generally remain
    unadulterated. This is my view.

    I have read in school, that Karikalan got his name because his feet got
    burnt when, as a child the hut he was hiding was set on fire. Is this
    true?

    Ph. D in history, and social sciences (in fact in any hard or soft
    discipline) is dicey; statistics comes to your to arrive at any (even
    contradictory) conclusion!

    Sampath
  • Dear Sir,

    Pls Permit me to be more explicit.

    The dam located at North- East of Tiruchi is being identified as
    Kallanai and some research made stating that it was built by Nayaks,
    some of the stones were removed from Gangaikonda Chozhapuram for
    reinforcing this, and the British did some reinforcement in the
    later part of last Century.

    The point I mentioned was different.

    Legend / Literatures state that KARIKALAN reinforced the BUNDS of
    Cauvery.

    The course of water takes a narrow stream at NIYAMAM, a place near
    Thirukkattuppali, West of Thirukandiyur - Thiruvaiyaru belt.

    This Niyamam was also known as AAYIRATHALI during Pallava period ..
    supposed to contain about 1000 linga temple.. construction of which
    Pallavas are known for. There were other Aayirathalis as well.

    Many of these lingam did were used in Kallanai during last Century.

    Some of them are located near Thirukandiyur also.

    Some of them are now positioned in the Northern prakara of Big
    temple / Thanjavur.

    Near this Niyamam, Cauvery narrows down between Two heavy rocks -
    forming as small mounds - due to a natural phenomenon.

    This scene is identical with an ancient coin available in State
    Museum, Chennai.

    In this coin, two mounts are shown, water flowing in between on one
    side... Other side there was a tamil word.. (forgot.. vaguely
    recollecting as THENNAN.. ).

    This coin was found near Nemem belt.

    connecting these things it was postulated that the KALLANAI
    originally existed at Nemam (farther East of Tiruchi - before
    Thiruvaiyaru) and Karikalan reinforced the bunds of this and made as
    a NATURAL DAM .. which has nothing to do with the TRICHY KALLANAI !

    regards/ sps
  • Hi
    always heard kallanai was the oldest functioning dam in the world.
    the oldest one is however in egypt.
    arent there mentions of kallanai during later cholas?

    then it should atleast be a 1000 years old

    venketesh
  • > >
    > > Legend / Literatures state that KARIKALAN reinforced the BUNDS of
    > > Cauvery.
    > >

    Hi sir,

    With due respects and thinking aloud

    1) if it were merely strengthening the bund, why list it along with
    something as lofty as flying your flag in the himalayas....definitely
    both are not at par...

    2) why strenthen the bund with stone - without something holding the
    bunds together a stone bund made of small stones is of no use, the
    water would just work on the sand below and roll them away - the large
    boulders are good only to break the speed of the waves ( like the
    shore temple) but not to contain a flooding.

    3) a bund would only be of use to the immediate surronding locales.
    why would the whole tamil land sing his praise unless it was something
    that was of use to larger porportion of the population.

    3) are there any other dams built by tamil kings....other than the
    kallanai. if not, why then are there so many techinical words in tamil
    language on dams ( they dont sound like newly formed words to me)

    koNTagkaTTippAyccu-tal to irrigate a field on a high level by damming
    a river or channel and forming a small reservoir

    koNTam - small reservor formed by damming a river or channel for
    irrigating field on a high level

    niraikkaTTai damming a river with stockade

    pAlipAy-tal to flow easily, without damming

    ullaTaippu damming a river with stockade

    tEkku-tal : to stop the flow, as of water; to dam up;

    pirivukkaTTai division dam

    maTai small sluice of a canal or stream; shutters of a sluice;

    pAkalavaTA apron of the dam

    pAlikaipAy-tal to flow easily without the help of a dam

    kurampu artificial bank, dam, causeway, bund; dam of sand, brushwood,
    loose stones, etc, running out from the banks of a river diagonally
    for a distance upstream; to ture the water into an irrigation channel;
  • Hi,

    I don't know much about history and historical places.. But when I was
    studying BE Civil Engg, I had a subject Hydrolgy and water resource
    engg..during that time I had visited kallanai and read a book borrowed from
    thanjavur central library..In which it was stated that the present kallanai
    is founded on the original kallanai built by karikala.
    Also
    During the british period the engineer Sir Arthur Cotton found this kallanai
    and built the sluices above the kallanai. Initially when they planned for
    the sluices work they found this kallanai area is the best one because
    during the flood period the surplus water can be diverted to kollidam. After
    founding this site they decided to demolish the kallanai but when they
    started demolition the identified that it was very strong due to the lime
    mortar and also there was very big stones used to construct the kallanai.
    Finally that engineer decided to use the original kallanai as the foundation
    for the new kallanai later they modified it to construct sluices to divert
    the water into differnt rivers like kaveri,vennaru,vettaru....

    Please see this link also..
    http://www.thanjavur.nic.in/agri.htm

    That book was return by a retired engineer from PWD, I think his name is
    karuppan...but I am not sure.
  • SPS wrote in 2004 ::

    There is an ancient coin preserved in Chennai museum: ..ori..
    Tamil writings on one side.. A small mountain like inverted M , with flow of river and rocks on other side.

    Kudavoil Dr. Balasubramanian researched and found that such place exists near Thirukkattupalli and the stone beds are natural. According to him THIS WAS ORIGINAL KALLANAI .
    Trichy Kallanai is Nayakar-built.
    ===============

    Nearby place was Nemam Aayirathali (1000 lingas Temple). In mid
    1950s when there was a flood, a bund was constructed by the locals to arrest the flow of water and alas! majority of our 1000 lingas were used as stones in the bund.
    Pallavas are known for such grandeurs (1000 lingas etc).. Nemam aayirathali was during Nandhivarman period... before Vijayalayan...located close to Nandhipuram /
    Thirukkanbdiyur!
    ============
    OTHER INTERESTING MAILS from Archieves ::

    ==================

    GOKUL WROTE ::
    Madai was one of the type of coins in usage during that era.
    Kazhanju kasu madai - all are different grades of coins.

    Rajarajan madai and uthamachozhan madai were used in chola land.
    Veerapandiyan madai was in use in pandiya land during veera pandiyan
    times - and continued to exist for some time during uttama times in
    pandiya lands.

    Other coins like Ezhakkasu, andradu narkasu, pazhang kasu.... ok, ok
    will stop here:-)
  • Dear SPS sir,

    Can u send me the similarinformationabout pazhayarai and other important places in chola kingdom ?
  • Will do dear Ravindran.

    regards / sps
  • Dear SPS sir,

    Thank u sir . I am waiting for ur information.
  • Dear members,

    Kannadasan in his poem states that

    'karikalan katti vaiththaan kallanai....

    panniraNdu nootRANdu senRadhu - aNai


    pazhudhillAmal kAlangaLai venRadhu


    The said song is sung by TMS and PS in 'Thabalkaran Thangai'.

    In this connection I wanted to confirm whether really Karikalan built the present Kallanai. If so when he built?

    t in the poem it is stated that Kalanai is one thousand two hundred years old. How it is possible?

    Did he built the kalanai after his death that too after 1300 years

    Our esteemed members may confirm the facts without hurting the feelings of others.
  • Hi friends,
     
    I have seen a number of mails from archives, discussing 'who built kallanai?'. The mails referred the ancient literary works and copper plates to prove it was not built by Karikalan and said it was built by Nayakars. But i haven't found any evidence supporting the 'Nayakars built Kallanai' theory. Are there any proofs supporting this?
     
    Also, can anyone tell what is the text written on the ancient coin, which Kudavoyil Balu sir has researched? And which king's reign did the coin belong to?
     
  • Vijay,
    I can understand that Karikalan had only strengthened the bunds. But i wanted to know how we conclude the dam was built by Nayakars. Curious to know if evidences are there to prove this.

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