I tend to align with Satish here; call it "Hindu" or "Indic" Indian history is seeped with the tenets of Indicness. Now if people don't like the term 'Hindu history' then we have only others to blame - for they bestowed the word Hindu on us.
The British influenced us for 400 years, the Muslims (and their invaders) had influenced us for several hundred years right from the 10th century.
These cultures definitely impacted our way of life, there is no point in denying; but the under lying theme is that we have remained Indic in nature. The kind of Islam or Christianity that is practiced in India is not the same elsewhere - in the sense there is enough "Indicness" into them. And no doubt what we call "Hinduism" now has evolved taking in concepts from everywhere.
If we call ourselves rice eating; then irrespective of we eat rasam sadham or tayir sadham we still are eating rice (sadham).
American (USA) history is based on Judeo-Christianity practices and values. The Americas had "native" history. Romans & Greeks had pagan history. Arabia had pagan and then Islamic history. And so on so forth. India had Indic history.
The interesting point is the words "Judeo-Christianity", "pagan", "native", "hindu", "Islamic" etc all have been coined from a Western prism.
But living (or lived) in India, we know how diverse our way of life is; yet there is a common thread running across the sub-continent folks. We are different from the Arabian peninsula, we had similarities and differences from the Persians, we had marked differences from the Far East, China etc.....in all irrespective of our differences within the sub-continent we had a common set of values that set us apart from the rest of the folks.
Now we might want to split hairs in calling this; but the point becomes that there are set of folks who are determined to suppress or not acknowledge this rich common past.
a true student of history should believe whatever happened till yesterday is a part of it. the issue here is definitely not denying the hindu heritage its credit. its mainly about reading the past without taking sides, or watching it thro coloured glasses.
a long time back the bbc reporter was reprimanded for saying "the police were forced to open fire". "the norms were the police opened fire"
I agree; such endeavors could give immense satisfaction and pose enough challenges too. We are all learners with varying interests and expertise; but one thing nobody would deny is that history (and even the future) is to a great degree is about connecting the dots (or data points). Some see a pattern emerge, while others are not interested in the patterns they are quite satisfied with collecting the data points, while some have enthusiasm in connecting those dots.
In the absence of concrete evidence, the further we go back in years the murkier the dots, lines and patterns get.
History is steeped with bias & prejudices of the victors or the people who drew attention. So we already have enough problems.
More than the Indian History, the problem is more related to Tamil history. The Highlighting of tamil culture is not different from Hindu culture is the problem .All along the stories of Tamilians were worshipping trees, stones. All the Gods are imported from Aryans. Now that belief is questioned agressively. That shaked up the whole thing. ( Many seniors also have strongly argued these earlier, nothing new) The fundamentals are questioned now that is creating much heat.
1. All along it was told that Tamil culture is different. Most of us believed. But now with more access to sangam litrature, we now could prove beyond doubt that it is Vedic.
2. Thirukkural is now proved beyond doubt that has more vedic ideas.
3. Brahmins were there in TN - Performing havans - even during sangam period.They have also composed poems. They were even a pattu Thalaivan in a song.
4. Even tamil kadavul kannagi had a vedic marriage and her temple had a vedic Kumbabishegam.
5. There is nothing called Dravidian. It is a Myth.
6. Even epics like Silappadigaram is more Hindu.
7. All Gods of Hindu pantheon can be traced to sangam. their many forms are also can be traced.
8. Vinayagar is also traced to 5th century. There were terracotta vinayagar of sangam age are discovered.
9. 70% of Brahmins have a village deity as Kuladeivam and take vibuthi from pujari before starting any auspious thing. The Gurukkal of a Gurukkal is a non brahmin poojari ( 70%)
Once these were discussed the fundamentals of Tamil History built in the last 50 years is collapsing. This fundamental is the main thing on which one religion is propagating supported by mass media.
>>We are all learners with varying interests and expertise; but one thing nobody would deny is that history (and even the future) is to a great degree is about connecting the dots (or data points). Some see a pattern emerge,
while searching for some details on the nayaks i came across this interesting tidbit the tanjore nayaks and madurai nayaks traditional enemies once joined hands to attack mysore state. the reason - mysore had built a dam across cauvery causing a drought in tamilnadu. but bfore the army could proceed a heavy rain literally melted the dam in mysore.and all was well
dont you see a pattern with today's water politics?
venketesh
> In the absence of concrete evidence, the further we go back in years the murkier the dots, lines and patterns get. > > History is steeped with bias & prejudices of the victors or the people who drew attention. So we already have enough problems. > > regards, >
But there is no denying that the Vedic system was formed in the current parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan and North-Western India. The system was refined as it spread towards J&K and the Indo-Gangetic plains. The spread of Vedic culture over the sub-continent happened slowly and essentially what we have is an amalgamation of different points and ways of life.
There is no proof yet to tell us Vedas were formed in say Ceylon or Burma, is it there?
The way we present the solution is key to making the impact last.
There is no way we are going to change what is done, but to secure the future, we must progress by creating the right environment and promoting the actual path as defined by ancient lightened ones. We do this for the future generations.
Identify the difference between 'Pazhamai and Pazhasu' (sorry kathie dont know the english on this) and eliminate pazhasu and keep the pazhamai.
Old wine in new bottle is need of the hour, eliminate outdated rituals and promote the strength of the foundation. Rituals take you just one path (first one) in evolution and surely the vedas do not stop there. Am not against rituals - they are very powerful energy citations, but there are much more powerful ways of adopting and harnessing energy than strict rigid rituals which make common people shy away from the goal.
Jains/Buddhists etc - One must understand, 'why' these offshoots came, address the root cause. You cannot cure cancer by giving ibuprofen.
There is no point being aggressive in handling these issues, aggression is actually a sign of weakness if handled without adequate knowledge to back it.
For all his nature, Arjuna was weak before Krsna showed him the knowledge.
Fight for establishing dharma, but have it backed by knowledge... after all this country Bharata is bha (divine illumination) + rata (engrossed).
As my school (PSBB) motto - Knowledge is Power!
Cant believe this comes out during bhogi - lets start clean up then!!! - R
>> The Highlighting of tamil culture is not different from Hindu culture is the problem .All along the stories of Tamilians were worshipping trees, stones.
The true understanding should be - the monemt you loose yoyr culture, you loose your country. pakisthan, bangladesh, - Now kashmir, North east. Tomarrow it will be Kerala, Tn.
The essence of India is hinduism and if Hinduism is lost, India is lost. That is why we oppose tooth and nail the missionaries.
India is secular because of Hindus. That is becoming a weakness for them
> There is no way we are going to change what is done, but to secure the future,
Hi ravi
remember santayana those who ignore the lessons of history are forced to repeat it.
dont take it too seriously but then a reading of history should prepare you for the future.
> Jains/Buddhists etc - One must understand, 'why' these offshoots came, address the root cause.
it all arises becauce many view them as protest movements against orthodox hinduism. than not only creates a rival status for them but also takes away a part of their greatness
just imagine jesus or buddha or mahavira a couple of thousand years ago without any media support create such huge movements.
I have couple of very primitive questions related to this topic.
1) When did the word Hinduism came in to being? 2) Does the kings before 14th century thought themselves as they are from the same religion - I mean hinduism? 3) As I understand, even Saivam and Vaishnavam is treated as different religion right? Is common thread is Vedas? 4) In olden days, it should have been the survival of the fittest even for the religion, each religion had a golden period with one king or the other. So, what is Hinduism as it stands today? Do we actually call it hinduism at all?
2. The basic Government laws, law of punishment, The Religious sadangus were common. sanskrit was the common in sadangus, which gace uniformity. ( The moment you remove sanskrit from sadangus, then they will look different and after 200 years can claim that the practise is not uniform)
3. Vedas is the main river and saivam, vainavam are various Ghats. Remember the song on Thirugyanasambandar - Vedaneri Onga, Migu saivathurai vilanga. here the word thurai is equal to thanneer thurai of a river.
4. vaishnavam as a separate entity is by ramanuja and it was a master stroke. it helped the masses to go with Rama and krishna and the bhakthi movement kept hinduism alive in Mugal rule.
> 2) Does the kings before 14th century thought themselves as they are from > the same religion - I mean hinduism?
mahendra was a jain(before conversion) and had tortured the greatest of our saints and pulikesi a hindu who may have built temples but whom do we support mentally in the path of kalki.
there are usually forces which overwhelm the religious affliations any day
The Pulikesi III after conquering Kanchi didnot destroy it but gave more grants to temples.
He exclaimed on kailasanatha temple. narasimha destroyed Vatapi. paramacharya indicates this and the attack on sringeri mutt as the 2 vanadalisams of Hindu kings and attributes it to Kshatram ie anger of a khsatriya. ( or king, or powerful)
I did not see the connection between 'Pazhamai' or 'Pazhasu', rituals, energy, Jainas, Buddhism, dharma etc. Can you elaborate the reason of your post as it is a reply to my post.
BTW, Knowledge is Power only if one uses the knowledge.
> dont take it too seriously but then a reading of history should prepare you for the future.
Exactly, this is my major struggle getting it across to the younger generations.
Lets face it how many kids like history in school ? How many kids today would 'love' to say sanskrit slokas on their own ? How many kids want to go and research museums ? Kids as in people in teens to mid 20's, the numbers are steadily declining.
Learning as in the Indian way is fast growing outdated, we are facing an uphill battle against the western way of education...
This is the same as what happened during the time of jains / buddhists etc - now the game is same - rules & settings are different.
Its like saying 'oh yea Rama & Arjuna were skillful marksmen i am a hindu, if there is a war i will only use a bow & arrow!!!!'
My point is - get the concept, use the new tools - build a better foundation. Start from simple basics - a humble approach!
The balance is to have people like VJ / Vairam giving a historical perspective and satish, adiyen (I am not sure of the name) etc to give a religious backing and people like malathi etc to have a secular view.
Understanding the balance is essence of survival.
History cannot be separate from Religion - not just Indian - anywhere, but history supersedes religion and Supreme Nature supersedes history.
> I did not see the connection between 'Pazhamai' or 'Pazhasu', rituals, energy, Jainas, Buddhism, dharma etc. Can you elaborate the reason of your post as it is a reply to my post.
Ok... my bad, I apologize :-)
> BTW, Knowledge is Power only if one uses the knowledge.
I agree... again - i should have walked the talk... ippo thaan vilanguthu enakku.... :-)
Was Jaina really an offshoot of Sanatana Dharma? I don't think Jains would agree with that. . . believe it arose in a parallel course with many overlaps {wasn't it Neminatha who's said to be Sri Krishna's cousin?} kathie
> The need is to eduacte them on the basics of Cultural ethos and reasoning. > > rather than scoing a point here, the more intresting thing will be to teach the masses. >
what makes you think that you are religiously advanced to the rural masses. what gives us the right to seek to educate them.
even now rural kula theivam temples are well cared for and their traditional gods honoured regularly.
in my opinion it was the influx of 'refined hinduism' which confused the masses .
my kulatheivam is petha perumal and kaderi temple within the ancient pandya fort of kilanilai kottai
the temple is full of 4 foot aruvals used over a couple of centuries to sacrifice goats.
this temple is the kulatheivam of I guess almost a 100000 people ranging from billionaires to cooks of various castes in pudukottai, ramnad and sivaganga districts.
goat sacrifice is an important feature on the puja day. temple has maintained its traditional puja for centuries. it is just incidental that some of us have migrated to cities or manage other ancient temples run by the agamic rules. but we havent wavered from the kulatheivam rituals either.
what is that a city based religious enthusiast educate us? that your form of hinduism is superior to ours?? or would you tell us this isnt hinduism at all?
Hi Shanker was reminded of something i read from reader's digest
an eskimo woman from the sparsely populated artic is brought to the city of newyork. she is stunned at the crowds of people and then she asks "why are so many people living away from everything?"
the masses that you speak of are not soulless people. they have their own faiths, their gods, ritual and beliefs.
just because they do not conform to your form of religion or meet your standards you want to educate them. how different are you from the missionaries.
why does a missionary convert a person? because he trusts that a man could can be saved if he changes his religious ways to what the missionary believes is right. in a way he is also trying to 'educate the masses' as you mention. chettinaad and its environs had christian missionaries as early as 350 years back. their schools and hospitals are still very visible. but then there is still no reason to hit the panic button yet. demographics have stabilised .
Sorry, sorry, You have mistaken or i have used wrong words to articulate.
What i said ( or wanted to say is) the rural people want to know more about the various aspects and the meaning.
The Rural people follow the practises more than city people. The Rural Siva / Vishnu Chariot festival, adithapasu, Panguni Uttiram, Thaipoosamare more participated than city one. On the other hand animal sacrifi
The Kuladeivam of Many city/Brahmins also rural deities and the rural deity worship is also part of the religion. In Muthee - One is for them. My Mother's family deity is veg upto 12 'noon and have sakkarai pongal. After that Only Goat.
Secondly thinking that village people worship only village deities is another misinfo. They worship Pillayar, Murugan, sivan also. They want to know more about that and the various practises of the temple.
- ayyo, eppadi kothu vangarango. Village habits are no way different .
Again and Again- The Rural Gods are the Kuladeivams of every one. My Mother and in laws have suck kuladeivam only. They are also part of the pantheon.
Simillarly the Vinayagar, Murugan, Vishnu, Sivan are all equally worshipped and the practises are the same across villages. The Pradosham in Silukkuvarpatti is celebrated in the same way as in Mylapore. Only diff is that the village people want to know the meaning more than the city people.
> what makes you think that you are religiously advanced to the rural masses. what gives us the right to seek to educate them. even now rural kula theivam temples are well cared for and their traditional gods honoured regularly. in my opinion it was the influx of 'refined hinduism' which confused the masses .
Well made point, rurals have a lot of god 'fear' but their bhakti is second to none. Refined hinduism is backed by many religious rituals and complicated sanskrit verses and rules.
As long as that true devotion is there the faith will survive.
> > As long as that true devotion is there the faith will survive.
as I travelled from coonoor to madurai last week, driving even in the midnight was so tough. the roads were crowded with thousands of pilgrims in green. women, children the aged all walking to palani
they would forsake a third of their months earnings already paltry to walk a couple of hundred kilometers on barefoot. their soles would be in tatters by the time they climb the hill.
i dont understand what is there to teach them about hinduism. they are already there, but are we?
when a man walks on fire people sometimes call it barbarism. but the man who firewalks is alredy sure god will let no harm come to him
do we have that faith?
need we protect him from the missionaries of the other religions. he has protected himself.
Nalla Kothu vangarenga. Nobody said that we are religiously advanced. Nobody under estimated the bhakthi of the rural masses either. . Most of the rural people want to know more about the religion and want to know more about the customs they practise, rather than blindly following. They ask that when leaflets are distributed stating that " Your God is not God, Your practises are not genuine etc", sir could you please explain about our customs and practises.
I know from where you are coming. Dont try to put such Caste seals on me. I have never told that i am SPRITUALLY advanced. Only thing i am telling that the storiespeople try to tell to masses will not sell any more. ( Like Dravidian, aryan, separate culture etc)
So dont try to bring stories of Spritual Advancement bla bla etc. convinently hiding other facts. Please donot attribute things to me like that. I have never said that Village people dont care for temples either.
My View is Rather than arguing with these people on all the stories they tell, it is better to tell the masses who want to know more.
Please argue with backups rather than allegations.
I think you are referring to Venkat's post but replied to mine.
I have no idea what you talk to others, so the option of allegation is an over kill mate. I never evaluate you (any one) spiritually, for that to be done, I must be in a level which I am not :-)
>> Your God is not God, Your practises are not genuine etc The art of mixing words is precise if you fall for it, no wonder others do too...
Your God is not God - this is an assumptive statement, no backing at this point.
Your practises are not genuine - Now is the real part, when they say this - they are challenging your practices to the guys who have no clue what the 'saami' is saying about their gothram etc in the temple... now this is when the common dude begins to think. There begins the end of the long road.
If some one were to say these to me in person, I would just laugh and say.. "you know what, you are right!!! I am probably just very immature :-)" This sir... is a primary difference :-)
Joke of the day! Pope has ordered the asian christian missionaries to 'soul harvest' and convert the whole of asia to christianity in this century. And, please note, he has signed a deal with the jews of Israel that there will be no conversion of jews. He knows that conversion is not possible in islamic countries and any attempt to convert muslims will invite violent reaction. In the last 5 years, two of my maids, with divine names Parvati and Lakshmi, have been coerced/converted with financial incentive and promise of educational facilities if they attend the church regularly. Conversion by conviction!
Yes, we need to educate all hindus - convince them that what they believe in and practice is right. We have a complex and accommodating culture which must be preserved. Even Manu enjoins the kings not to interfere with the local customs and practices of conquered lands.
Why bat for christians and muslims who have clear agendas to convert and enlarge their base; they are doing it without our help. Sampath
>> In the last 5 years, two of my maids, with divine names Parvati and Lakshmi, have been coerced/converted with financial incentive and promise of educational facilities if they attend the church regularly. Conversion by conviction!
> In the last 5 years, two of my maids, with divine names Parvati and > Lakshmi, have been coerced/converted with financial incentive and > promise of educational facilities if they attend the church regularly. > Conversion by conviction!
so it is purely a economic bargain. so it has limitations in both. the amount of money to be continuosly given to the converts as well as the people who can be enticed by money. how many of your relatives became christians or relatives of mine?
and how do you educate somebody on the pitfalls of conversion other than oration on the internet? i am sincerely curious.
> and how do you educate somebody on the pitfalls of conversion other than oration on the internet? i am sincerely curious.
This is where the Alwar / Nayanmar model comes in (Current situation - Same problem different settings) - coupled with the sincere devotion / bhakti of the village / simple folks etc enhance the bhakti notion.
People think that all other religions can give protection from their problems (some atleast financially for a while) while all our gods / mantras etc is not working for them.
Conversion only addresses the pain at that point while there is no cure for these problems as long as karma (Newton 3rd law) is existent. Only our faith says that where as our rituals show another path which just confuses people.
Align the concept with Science , Reason , logic and pump money to launch a counter offensive with a positive reinforcement for the belief.
Start the bhakti marketing campaign ! - No Rules - Just love :-)
> > pump money to launch a counter offensive with a positive reinforcement for the belief.
anga thaanE prachanai most of our temples dont even have oil to light their lamps and the tenants (99% of them hindus) dont even pay the rent. the total rent arrears must be much above what malik kafur looted
musnt our campaigns first be towards cleaning up the mess that is our temple system other than pamphlet distribution absolutely no counter offensive is visible. now the internet has become a convenient channel for them. i wonder if lakshmi and parvathi or people in their positions see the internet.
venketesh
> > Start the bhakti marketing campaign ! > - No Rules - Just love :-) > > - R >
> > I know from where you are coming. Dont try to put such Caste seals on me.
My Dear Shanker this is the route every religious argument goes. thats why this group avoids putting caste seals on people is the last thing i would do. i am proud of my caste , my religion and my language and i expect every person to be proud of his heritage too.
I quote your point again > > > The need is to eduacte them on the basics of Cultural ethos and reasoning. rather than scoing a point here, the more intresting thing will be to teach the masses.
i think the masses living in villages have better cultural ethos than us and are much deeper in religious values ( whichever reigion they belong to) i literally feel guilty at their levels of piety when compared to mine.. at one time i used to feel proud of having visited 225 thevara shrines but then it was all in an airconditioned car with packed lunches.
venketesh
> > > Ã > > > > > > what makes you think that you are religiously advanced to the rural masses. what gives us the right to seek to educate them. > > > > even now rural kula theivam temples are well cared for and their traditional gods honoured regularly. > > > > in my opinion it was the influx of 'refined hinduism' which confused the masses . > > > > venketesh > > >
Those who want to know in the village and asking people to come and share with them are many.
They call people to tell them the other side because they were always told some thing different like the south tower of chidambaram story. They say, sir of late we are bombarded with public meetings, paper hand outs and door to door campaign. We need to tell our youth about the culture and meaning. How long we will say that it is our tradition. Tell us the inner meaning.
They are infact asking us why we are sitting in city. They say send as many people as possible or give us books where we can find ourself.
Ivvalavu solreenga, en yarum engalukku eduthu solla matengareenga?
This is not a fig of imagination but the reality. Have a free wheeling vist to villages and talk to more people on the subject. Many chennai auto drivers are also a good sample. You can have a good data base in them.
Plurality is required. I am not even against conversion by accepting the religion.
It would have been great if the Original Bhudhism ( as pointed out by Mr Narasimhan) existed. No God, you are your destiny.
I am only against the follwoing:
1. tarnishing Hinduism and Gods 2. Propoagating lies about the religion 3.Re writing History 4. Targeting attacking religious persons with a concentrated false propaganda. 5. using the foriegn aid for poor as incentive to conversion. all foriegn aid became infrastructure cost. 6. After getting a majority, forcing the others out. 7. Then try to cut away from India
Why pakisthan went or Kashmir, Nagaland, Mizoram, megalaya want to go out?
> This is not a fig of imagination but the reality. Have a free wheeling vist to villages and talk to more people on the subject.
I should tell you shanker that i travel widely into interior of the state and frequently too. just last week i did a couple of thousand kilometers into the interiors.spread over 4 districts. not only that my links with my village is intact. one surprising thing i noted in sivaganga district was 10 times people flock to the amman and aayyanar temple than the ancient vedic temples. especially in kalayarkoil.on a normal day the huge temple has a handful inside while the nearby amman temple has perpetual crowds
The temples are maintained excellently now. The HRCE dept is doing an excellent job of late. Both the past and present Govt have taken lot of initiatives.
Thanks to Mr AMR of Kumudam Jyodidam - Now temples have more lamps lighted.
many Thevara sthalams which i thought will disappear are in excellent condition. T Idayar, Mundeeswaram are far better than they were.
I wont say all but some of the properties are taken back. Th situation is much much better than 80s.
> Why pakisthan went or Kashmir, Nagaland, Mizoram, megalaya want to go out?
remember. tamilnadu was the first state wanting to go out. in karan singhs autobiography he reproduces a letter he has written to nehru on the secessionist attitudes of sheikh abdullah and tamil politicians
i personally dont think religion is the issue in the north east.
Hi kathie a devaram mentioned shiva temple is a guarentee of 1300 years a devi temple might be recent or older.mostly recent. in india recent could mean 300-400 years too.
More than Alwars and nayanmars, we can have the North Indian bhakthi movement which withstood war and talwar.
But please note that no movement objected to sadangus. Sadangu is not only velvi. It includes all rituals. Infact Bhajan itself is a sadngu. Going to temple by walk, carrying water all are sadangus.
Once the ultimate bhakthi comes then no sadangu. Summa iru sollara. No e mail. No reply. No preaching. No shouting.
For a religion with 33 crore devatas, an extra god is not a problem at all.
As for as Bhakthi is concerned, Chadurthi, Pradosham, Bhajans Krithigai............. What not?
But reasoning? even my 8 year old child asks so many questions and a clear convincing answer required.
In states like orissa, Gujrat, MP, Jhargand etc the approach of seva bharathi is enough. Work with rural people and provide education, hospitals etc.
In states like TN, AP wherethe problem is more on both financial andmental offencive we require a different approach.
Finacial can be matched or not matched .But the intellectual corruption like - Dravidian, Aryan. Namma culturedifferent, South tower closedbecause of nandanar type requires aparallel approach. The person going out due to this need to be held.
Join with a group with which you are convinient. First share with them. Train them on the Historical perspective andthe latest developments in this line.
i came to knowabout sanagmand silappadigaram thing 6 months back and all along believed the stories. My tamil sangam was limited to manappadap pagudi. Prepare and educate those rural workers and counter that offencive. The rural workers i discussed were surprised and asking which book? can you give books?
The type ofdiscussion we had is rarely seen in the rural task force or the mutts cordinating. They fumble for answers.