Dasavatharam :: Trailer link
  • >
    >
    > Recalling: ALL THE ROADS ARE LEADING TO ROME. Christianity
    >
    > All the roads are leading to Kolkatta: Ramakrishna Paramahmsa

    Just quoting Vanthiyathevan here from the first book,

    "Ariyum Sivanum onnu, ithay ariyathavar vayil mannu"
  • Re: C H I D A M B A R A M - Kirumi Kand Chozhan -

    reposting message dt: 22.08.2005 ::
  • oh Malathy, you should have become a lawyer. YOu really read between lines.
    I didnt mean anything and never put the word in quotes as you did. It was just a simple
    expression. Though I mentioned it without intention, I take back the words.

    In thiruvilayadal, there is a dialogue which goes like - 'kuttram kandu pidithe peyar
    vangam pulavargal irukkirargal'.

    Sorry I cant deny remembering that dialogue here. Please do take atleast this in lighter
    sense. :)
  • Mr Rahul,

    This is indeed my first post in this group. Ha Ha Ha.... The
    Vaishnavite in me screaming!!!! Hey, definitely it is not. All along
    I have observed the valuable contribution of others on History of TN
    here. I would contribute only on the subject that I know. Since I
    knew very less or nothing about the history (Honestly, only PS
    created the interest in History on me) I was a silent observer. As
    you observed correctly, since the topic was about something the I
    knew I contributed. So please do not conclude that I know much. And
    no sorries please. I understand your intention and no ill feelings.

    In fact I know that there is a widespread belief about the Iyengars
    being Fanatic in that they wont go to Siva Temple. This is just
    misrepresented and that is why I tried to clarify the reason why the
    Iyengars do not go to Siva Temples. Honestly, I have been to Siva
    temples, but let me admit that I dont pray there. Another refuge
    under Nammazhwar. He says in his Thiruvaimozhi

    ....koLLak kuRaivilan, vEndiRRu ellAm tharum kOdhil en maNivaNNan....

    He says that Vishnu is capable of giving all that one wants, in the
    spirit of the same philosophy (husband-wife bhAvam) that I wrote
    before.

    This is what is called harmony. I may believe in a God and stick to
    Him. But I will never defame another God. I may not pray to Him. That
    doesn't mean I disrespect Him. Exactly like a wife being loyal only
    to her Husband. Thirumazhisai Azhwar's life history signifies tis. He
    was a staunch Vaishnavite everyone knows. One when he was stiching
    his clothes, Siva and Parvathi were coming rounds around the earth
    and Parvathi was attracted by the "tEjas" of this Azhwar and told
    Siva that we should give him some boon. Siva, knowing about this
    Azhwar, was hesitant but gave in to the pressure of Parvathi
    (mmmmm.... anga kooda appidithAn pola) and both came down and asked
    the Azhwar to ask for a boon. The Azhwar said with complete respect
    that he does not want anything from them. But when insisted, he being
    a truly surrendered soul awaiting only mOksha, asked for it. Siva
    says that only Vishnu can give that. Azhwar says then he does not
    want anything. But again on insisting, he asked a very trivial boon
    that the thread should enter the needle at the back. Though at the
    outset it will look like a dry sarcasm without any respect, it is
    just reflective of the position that he does not want anything. The
    Azhwar never disrespected Siva. This is the same bhAvam that all
    Iyengars follow.

    However, if any Iyengar, talks ill of any other God, not only Siva,
    he ceases to be a true Vaishnavite as again Nammazhwar glorifies in
    his Thiruviruttham this time as....

    vaNangum thuRaigaL pala pala Aakki, madhi vigaRppAl
    piNangum samayam pala pala Aakki, avai avaidhOru
    aNangum pala pala Aakki, nin moorthi parappi vaithAi
    iNangu ninnOrai illAi, nin kaN vEtkai ezhuvippaNE

    Wonderful words. For Nammazhwar everything is Vishnu or Kannan as he
    says "....uNNum sOru, thinnum vetRilai, parugum nIr, ellAm kaNNan..."
    He say in the above pAsuram that Vishnu created so many religions
    and so many forms of worship so that all the jeevAthmAs can attain
    salvation by one means or other and He is present in all those
    religions and forms. So where is the question of disrespecting Siva
    or for that sake any god. I would consider that every God of every
    religion is Vishnu as per the above words of the Kulapathi Nammazhwar.

    And lastly I dont want to start a debate on Vaishnavism Vs Saivism
    and spoil the wonderful ambience of this group, which respects all.

    Sorry for the digression and thank you for the opportunity to present
    a more clear picture about the Vaishnavites sticking only to Vishnu,
    which is definitely not fanaticism, but a bhAvam as per their
    philosophy.
  • Smt Malathi,

    Very good words. Whatever form the devotee seeks He becomes the same.

    thamar ugandhadhu evvuruvam, avvuruvam thAnE,
    thamar ugandhadhu eppEr maRRappEr,
    thamar ugandhu evvaNNam sindhitthu imayAdhirupparE
    avvaNNam AazhiyAnAm.

    (thamar - selfless devotees)

    No need to explain the meaning as the Tamizh is very simple. Yes, you
    look upon the Supreme Being as Siva, He will show himself as Siva, if
    you look upon Him as Vishnu, He will show himself as Vishnu.

    This is glorified by Ramanuja himself. Once when he was walking
    through the Kaveri Banks in Srirangam, the kids of Srirangam were
    playing with the sand, building a temple and on seeing Ramanuja
    called him and said " svAmin, come here. Take this prasAdham of your
    beloved PerumAL". This noble man, immediately obeyed the kids and
    took the prasAdham, which is nothing but sand, with utmost respect in
    the angavasthram and paid obeisance and left the spot. He accepted
    the sand as both Ranganatha and His prasAdham. This is what is
    glorified as bhAva suddhi.

    This is why I wrote in my previous mail that no true Srivaishnavite
    will disrespect another God.
  • Respected SPS sir,

    The Guruparampara Prabhavam is said to have been compiled sometime
    after the demise of Ramanuja. I vaguely remember it was Pinbazhagiya
    Perumal Jeeyar, a third generation disciple of Ramanuja.

    Ramanuja
    l
    l
    Parasara Bhattar
    l
    l
    Nanjeeyar
    l
    l
    Nampillai
    l
    l
    Pinbazhagiya Perumal Jeeyar.

    The tree will clarify this. But remember all the above AchAryAs upto
    Nanjeeyar lived along with Ramanuja. Nampillai and Pinbazhagiya
    Perumal Jeeyar were contemporaries though the latter was a disciple
    of the former. I will throw more light on this, regarding the
    timelines shortly. Kindly bear with me.
  • Mr Sathish,

    I am giving my two cents worth below.
  • Forget about Vaishnavite and Saivite. Even within vaishnavite,
    acharyas devoted to Rama would never go to Krishna temple and vice
    versa. Again this is their bhava, this is called ananya bhakthi -
    http://vedabase.net/a/ananya. Not a disrespect to Rama or Krishna.

    For eg., One of Panduranga's leela is to pull Ramadasar (Guru of King
    Sivaji). Ramadasar never visited krishna's temple due to his Ananya
    bhakthi and Pandurangan wanted to see him ONLY because of that.

    > This is why I wrote in my previous mail that no true Srivaishnavite
    > will disrespect another God.
    >
  • Very good harmonious postings dear V.Venkat..

    most welcome ...

    Thiruvalangadu Copper plates describe Rajaraja as having been born
    with Chanku Chankra Rekhas and the wives of Adhisheshan were joyed
    to realise that their husband's burden would soon be RELIEVED OF ..
    by RRC ... !

    So much to share...

    Pls put more of AZHWAR'S THIRUMOZHI... THAEN MOZHI..

    NAMMAZHWAR is my Favourite Aazhwar ...

    Been to Azhwarthirunagari last year and medidated under that ancient
    Tree !!

    Though there are 12 Azhwars, MADURAKAVI did not hymn on Vishnu.. He
    hymned only on NAAMAZHWAR..

    Hence 11 Aazhwars hymned on Sriramngam..

    and 10 on Thirumala...

    Thirumangai has hymned on most of the Divyadesams...

    And NAMMAZHWAR did not go around to see the Divyadesams..

    Each form of Vishnu presented before Nammazhwar..

    anbudan / sps
  • Venkat #2, wise words, and my humble submission -
    there is no such thing as 'another God', that is all.
    Thank you.
  • Satish, how can you not mean 'anything', we all mean
    something dont' we :))? I did not read between lines,
    only quoted what you said.

    I will confess my weakness too, I hate being too soft
    on these age old divisionary arguments, basically all
    is one, leave it at that, that is all. If we try to
    argue on those lines it is just an attempt to dilute
    that stance.

    thanks!!

    Malathi.
  • Friends:
    Sri Vishnu is the warp and Sri Sivan is the woof. Together they
    weave the universe.
    Kathie
  • That's a lovely story about Sri Ramanuja, Malathi.
    I'm collecting such inspirational tales.
    kathie
  • Venkat II, very well said tht both versions are not in
    league with the original beauty of hindu thought.

    As far as Vaishavites take 'offence' at depiction of
    mal in sculptures etc, that somehow to me adds up to
    what Mal means to the person. God is beyond such petty
    offences, He whether you see him as Mal or Shiva is
    the embodiment of compassion, He is not standing for
    election and not expecting his devotees/followers to
    save him from insults. As a vaishavite myself I would
    just look at it as the sculptor's perspective that is
    all.

    The late D.K. Jayaraman, brother of veteran singer
    D.K. Pattamal had a song in one of his albums - I
    forget the author of the song, but it went like
    Hariyum Haranum Onre endru ariyadavar ularo...
    Jayaraman used to end the song on humorous note 'Oooh
    oru silar ularae'...

    Malathi
  • Sorry Vijay I addressed you as Venkat.

    Also Kathy, I did not share the Ramanuj story it was
    someone else. It is one of my favorite stories too.
  • sure malathi
    the oneness of god is what a lot of people accept today.
    but the greatest of our saints who attained super human energetic
    levels never beleived in it.
    even in hinduism which is the most tolerant of those religions
    existing today.
    "MatrOr theivam vanthipathEn" says abiram pattar.
    sundarar in his devaram even mimics the jain prayer
    sambanda did not hesitate to see thousands of jains impaled when they
    lost in a debate to him.

    venketesh
  • Guys,

    Let's wait for the movie to be released or kindly change the
    subject and continue the discussion.
  • Venkat I don't disagree that Sambandar and Appar had
    jains impaled. They lived in diferent times. There are
    things we can accept about those times and things that
    we cannot. Forget even about Sambandar and Appar if
    you look at the gory exploits of our divine figures it
    is not something we can digest in our time
    and age.

    Generally though when saint says his God is the only
    way they mean what they have seen and experienced
    spiritully that is all. The only way to expound such
    experiences is by unilaterally asserting that it is
    the only way - the 'only way' referred to by Christ
    and pattar are the same 'only ways' just their
    experience that is all.

    If we study spiritual ecstasy in any culture and
    tradition, it is not the path but the ultimate
    experience it is the same that is why we believe it is
    One. We can say there is no proof, and continue on the
    lines of my God versus your God, that is not going to
    lead anywhere other than everyone finishing one
    another off, that is all.

    En sitravukku ettiyadhu,

    Malathi
  • -
    Dear Vijay,

    Of course I see the point..

    I have already provided a HINT in my earlier mail::

    Quoting Historian A. Krishnaswamy's " Early Vaishnavism in
    tamilnadu ".

    Pls provide details ..

    But I have also some details to offer.. which I will do soon.

    But that is excellent summerisation.

    EACH LINE IS STUDDED WITH INFORMATION..,

    (Dear Members, Vijay is a Finance person in the Shipping Line .. ! )

    Thanks Vijay for putting several leads...

    anbudan / sps
  • Respected SPS Sir,

    You have literally bombarded me with informations. I will try to
    analyse the possibility of a Chola King being the reason behind
    Ramanuja's exile. I request some time before I reply to this. I will
    reply to this within a week's time.
  • SPS Sir,

    The Chitrkoodam of Ramayana is neither the Thillai Vilaakam nor
    Chidambaram. It is somewhere in Madhyapradesh. This is were Rama,Sita
    and Lakshmana stayed for atleast 11 years before Sita was abducted by
    Ravana. One can google and find many references to this place.

    Azhwars never talk about Chidambaram being associated with
    Thiruchitrakoodam where Rama had stayed. The the name for Chidambaram
    as Thiruchithrakoodam is at best a co-incidence or namesake. And by
    the above, Thillai Vilaagam stands no were near to be termed
    Chithrakoodam of Ramayana fame, though the Rama idol was found there.

    For the records, I had never visited Thillai Vilaagam.
  • Wow, that is a news to me. Atleast we definitely do not have such an
    inclination in Tamizh Vaishnavism, if can say so to give an identity to
    the one followed by the Tamizh Azhwars and AchAryas like Ramanuja upto
    Manavala Mamuni
  • SPS Sir,

    Thanks for your kind words. I will try to post some of them as I
    know. But as I conveyed earlier, I know very little and I will empty
    my bag soon. :-)
  • Smt Malathi,
    Agreed, there cannot be another God. But as perspectives differ from
    one sect to other sect, this term "another God" came into existence
    and that is what I meant. As you are all aware, the look upon the
    only Supreme Being as Vishnu, while others may view Him as Siva or
    any other name. This is what I tried to say.
  • Mr Venketesh,

    There is a Vaishnavite contribution to this too....

    Thondaradippodi Azhwar says

    "maRRum Or dheivam unDE, madhiyilA mAniDanGAL,
    uRRa podhanRi neengaL oruvan enRu uNara mAttIr,
    aRRamEl onRu aRiyIr, avanallAl dheivam illai,
    kaRRinam mEittha endhai kazhaliNai paNimin nIrE"

    Very Simple Tamizh again. However I wouldn't look at it as a true
    differentiation, but just an aberration due to the perspectives
    prevalent. The loyalty of the Azhwar or the Abhirama Bhattar or
    Sundarar was at extreme that they praised very high about the form
    they loved. That is it?
  • Mr Vijay

    You share my thoughts too. The stories of Vishnu getting ostracised
    by Siva, in the Sarabeshwarar or ThiruvIzhimizhalai legend and vice
    versa are, in my humble opinion, at best fictitious. I, for one, do
    not want to believe these Sthala Puranams, which associates an
    ancient Puranam, for even a temple built as recently as 150 years
    ago.

    I was watching the Jaya TV sometime back and they were showing about
    the Mannargudi Rajagopala Swamy temple. It is very well know that it
    was built during the times of Kulothunga I and he built it during
    his "kADu thiruthi nADu paDuthum paNi". But immediately the presenter
    started associating some PuraNa which did mention about a PerumAL
    being present there. How!!!??? How in the world is this possible.

    Like wise the Sarabeswarar legend is very funny. It is said that Siva
    took the form of Sarabeswarar to kill Vishnu. First of all what is
    the motive? Afterall Vishnu took the form of Narasimha to protect his
    own devotee, Prahaladha. He did achieve His mission. What was the
    need of Siva to kill Him? Okay let us ascribe some motive and accept
    it for argument sake. Off late, we can see the legend of Pratyangira
    becoming famous and more with the visits of ex-CM JJ to the temple in
    Sholinganallur. The legend behind Pratyangira is that, Parvathi or
    Kaali took the form of Female lion and killed Narasimha. My God!!! If
    the husband has killed a person earlier, why would the wife need to
    take another form to kill the same person and again what is the
    motive. Or did Parvathi kill a "dead snake"?

    It is just that our ancestors who framed all these stories wanted to
    ascribe some antiquity to all these stories by way of a SthalapurANam
    so that the temple can be glorified. Really funny marketing tactics.
  • Dear VM Venkatesh,
    Chitrakut Tirtha is within a recently created district of
    the same name, in South UP, near MP border.
    Kathie B.
  • It is very simple. Our writer Venketesh writes his name with an 'e'. The
    other Venkatesh, with an 'a'.
    There wa an acrimonius exchange between two venkats in another forum;
    one was k****** venkat and the other started identifying himself as not
    k****** venkat.

    I agree with with Rahul; the vadakalai-thenkalai debate can easily get
    out of bounds as aryan-dravidan or other sensitive topics we have seen.
    It is better to stay clear or just state facts (?) with proof (?).

    Sampath
  • Thank you yes i agree very much.
  • On the same line of thought n in relation to cholas...why does the sibi ( swmbian) legends find place in the buddhist jataka stories. Similarly srilankan chronicles talk of a similar legend to the manu needhi cholan...

    Vj
  • Venkat2, whatever little I know from my grandmother,
    Narasimha's anger was not appeased even after killing
    Hiranya so Parvati or Shiva decided to confront the
    lion (not exactly Vishnu).

    I agree with what you say that many stories may have
    been invented as marketing tactics for the temple.
    There are several stories like that about Shiva too
    (The mohini basmasura tale where Shiva takes refuge in
    Vishnu to save him).

    Personally I have found them interesting and useful
    for their morals and similes to some situation
    spiritual or otherwise.If we look at them as
    independant tales not some correlation on a larger
    scale it may make some sense.

    Malathi
  • >
    > VIII. Post Malik Kafur period for 70 years NO POOJA FOR NATARAJA
    >
    > IX. Malik Gafur (1327 .. AD) invaded Brahastapuri - having Siva
    > Linga and Golden Narayana with Horses and a view that it was
    > Chidambaram is not refuted..
    >


    malik kafur invaded a decade earlier. must be 1311-1312.
    what temples he left was wiped out in the second turkish invasion a
    decade later. but only temples on the way to madurai.
    thanjai was not touched.
    lots of things are not clear during this period.
    temples like madurai and srirangam have functioned quite well in the
    period between the two invasions.
    chidambaram has not functioned.
    another opinion on bramastapuri could it have been sirkali?

    but one has to remember all these are from the accounts of the turks
    wassaf and khusro. they even called madurai 'maabaar'.

    venketesh
  • Very Good quote.

    pls continue.

    anbudan /
    sps
    ==========
  • As always, very detailed. Thanks Vijay.
  • Vijay,beautifully put, thanks.
  • - EXTRACTS -
    Naalayira divya Prabandam- Part I -(Little Flower Edn)
    CHITRAKUDAM :
    PERIYA THIRUMOZHI 3:: Thirumangai (Synopsis / rough transln )
  • I get to see some obscure characters. I am not able to read it in
    Tamizh. Can some one guide me as to how to get it done.

    Mr Vijay,

    Excellent writeup. For a Vaishnavite perspective, the story of
    Chidambaram goes like this (Could be a well exaggerated and
    aberrated one). Once, there was a competition between Nataraja and
    Thillai Kaali as to who is the best dancer. They decided to compete
    it out. As Vishnu is the Supreme Being (for the Vaishnavite
    Perspective) they approached Him to be the judge. So Vishnu in the
    form of Govindaraja came and reclined at Chidambaram to be the judge
    for the competition. This is how both the murthys came into
    existence in the same temple.

    The story goes on to get completed thus, when Nataraja did the most
    wonderful cosmic form of the dance by lifting His leg, which Kaali
    could not do due to the inherent shyness of a Woman and thus
    Govindaraja declared Nataraja as the winner. I dont know if any one
    of you heard this before. But I have heard it umpteen times.

    =========Quote================
    therupon vishnu lay prostrate (
    > bhoga sayana) in the hall of thillai inorder that his prayers to
    see
    > the other leg might be granted.
    ========Unquote===============

    I have a different view of this. Fine that it was recorded by
    Manikkavasagar. But can someone confirm if Manikkavasagar used the
    word "prostrate". The reason I ask this is, Logically, a person who
    is praying or prostrating would never be in such comfortable Bhoga
    Sayana pose. Rather, only the person, who is so very comfortable and
    doesn't need anything more, would be in such a pose. I am sure you
    would all agree to this logic. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Also as I am unable to read the Tamizh verses below, please clarify.

    But Personally my opinion about the co-existence of both the murthys
    at the same temple is different. In my humble opinion, as I would
    always, I would discard the Sthalapuranic versions of both
    Vaishnavites and Saivites. I would only say that both were in
    separate temples close to each other, with no connection whatsoever.
    When Kulothunga II wanted to expand the temple of Nataraja, it is
    recorded that he approached the Vaishnavites of the area to
    dislocate the Govindaraja shrine for which there was a vehement
    opposition. Irked at it, he got the Murthy removed from the temple.
    This is recorded by the court poet Ottakoothar in his ThakkayAga
    bharaNi too. Now there is also the account of the Senji, king, re-
    installing the Perumal in the shrine, much against the opposition of
    the Dhikshitars. I would only say that the Vaishnavites were very
    good in getting the king convinced that the Nataraja temple was
    expanded over the old Vishnu temple and hence Govindaraja needs to
    be re-instated there. This king being a staunch Vaishnavite did so
    with his authority.

    So the basic problem, in my opinion, in Chidambaram, is the egoistic
    authorities of two Kings during two different era, which has give
    rise to the Saivite-Vaishnavite conflict.

    I request the learned members to correct me, wherever I am wrong in
    my above assumptions.
  • Smt Malathi,

    That is easily contested from a Vaishnavite Perspective. It was true
    that no one was even able to near Narasimha due to the heat
    generated due to His anger. It is said that even Lakshmi, who is the
    embodiment of Karunya, could not
    go near Her husband. Then every one prayed to Prahaladha himself to
    go forward and bring down the "ugram" of Narasimha. On seeing the
    innocent (did I say that?? Afterall he was the greatest Bhaktha)
    face of the child Prahaladha, (for whose cause, Vishnu took the
    Narasimha Avatar) Narasimha cooled down and only then Lakshmi was
    able to near Him.

    This is espoused in the ThiruvallikkENi pAsuram of Periya Thirumozhi
    by Thirumangai Azhwar.

    paLLiyil Odhi vandthan than siRuvan vAyil Or Ayira nAmam
    oLLiyavAgi pOdha Angadhanukku, onRumOr poRuppilanAgi
    piLLaiyaicheeri venguNdu thooNpudhaippa, piRayeiRRanal vizhipEzhwAi
    theLLia singamAgiya thEvai thiruvallikkENi kaNDEnE!!

    Azhwar, as evident from the pAsuram above, clearly says that
    the "Ugra simham" became "theLLia singam" due to Prahaladha.

    Again I dont want to contest a tale here, but the SthalapuraNams.
    The reason is the happening of a tale is a 50-50 probability based
    on the beliefs of the individual, but the sthalapuraNams never go
    well with the History. One will notice that 95% of the kings
    mentioned in a sthalapuranam will never find a mention anywhere in
    History. There are a very handful of divyadesams, whose
    sthalapuranams are atleast closer if not exactly matching with
    History. Srirangam for one is much better as can be seen from the
    Temple Chronicles called the "Koil Ozhugu".
  • dear sps sir,

    Was not clear of your prev post, trying understand what you
    meant...pl correct me if i am wrong.

    1. thillai had both nataraja and reclining vishnu idols - evident
    from the hymns
    2. the reclining pose of the vishnu idol is also sung.
    3. is this idol made of bronze - as of now hv seen seated or
    standing vishnu bonzes only. also mulavar always made of stone. so
    in all probability the reclining idol is a stone idol and as is seen
    in most simiarly dated temples, the sayana idols are massive stone
    sculptures.
    4. similar logic, mulavar in stone - follows that the utsavar could
    be bronze/metal.
    5. so there were a utsavar ( metal) and another moolavar ( stone)
    6. now a court poet couldnt be wrong in three places - and the
    reference is not a casual mention but one full of ridicule - aka
    returning it to its original abode..
    7. so an idol was put into the sea - and was later recovered and
    restored back into the temple compound....this is where it defies
    logic . first of all it would take a lot of effort to dislocate a
    massive stone idol and to carry it all the way to the sea and drop
    it - then fishermen finding it - how did they bring it up and again
    move it back into the compound - would the king allow it to happen -
    then why drop it in the first place??

    another idol ( metal) moves to lower tirupathi - was this then the
    utsavar that got dropped into the sea - makes more sense that way...

    the stone utsavar - moved from earlier location facing natarajar -
    somewhere within the temple compound. the metal moolavar dropped
    into the sea - found by fishermen - sent to tirupathi and
    consecrated there...

    vj
  • >
    > I have a different view of this. Fine that it was recorded by
    > Manikkavasagar. But can someone confirm if Manikkavasagar used the
    > word "prostrate". The reason I ask this is, Logically, a person
    who
    > is praying or prostrating would never be in such comfortable Bhoga
    > Sayana pose. Rather, only the person, who is so very comfortable
    and
    > doesn't need anything more, would be in such a pose. I am sure you
    > would all agree to this logic. Please correct me if I am wrong.
    >
    > Also as I am unable to read the Tamizh verses below, please
    clarify.
    >

    hi, try this link or you can go to the archive site ( thiru pl help)

    http://www.thevaaram.org/thirumurai_1/songview.php?
    thiru=8&Song_idField=8211&padhi=11&startLimit=5&limitPerPage=1&sortBy
    =&sortOrder=DESC

    the reference is kidanthan - lay - the pose of vishnu is more of
    enjoying the dance and hence completely agree with you , as even the
    author wrote ... ithought many times before posting this verse but
    then it is important to use this as a substantiation of the fact
    that both the idols co existed - hence posted it - so pl understand
    that i wasnt meant to harm anyones feelings.

    regarding the urdva thandavam - i am not really sure of your version
    of vishnu being brought in to judge - from even sanksrit references
    and iconographic ( pallava times) - the dance of shiva is
    accompanied by both vishnu and brahma playing appropriate muscial
    instruments....the agamas of sculpture are very clear - size of the
    main character guides the composition - so if shiva's dance is the
    main plot - he is shown in much bigger size than kali in the same
    freeze. bramha and vishnu occupy the outer niches....you even have
    nandhi joining in the dance - then he moves into the composition..
    you have numerous such statues in kanchipuram, gkc, big temple. our
    sculptures studied these verses and followed them to the tee.
    unfortunately as you already pointed out, since vaishnavite temples
    do not show this particular form, we can never see the examples from
    that side...


    reposting an earlier post of mine - from a book - nataraja in art
    thought and literature by C. Sivaramamoorthy
    As Siva commences his dance in the evening. Ratnakara imagines, in
    the
    loftiest terms the sun and moons as the cymbals used by the goddess
    of
    prosperity herself for tala and laya, the most important in the
    nritta
    aspect of dance. At the commencement of dance by Siva at dusk, with
    the sun disc setting near the astagiri and the full moon emerging
    into
    light from his locks, it seems to make the celestial goddess of
    prosperity hold as it were these two as cymbals for the Lord's
    musical
    orchestra:
    astavalambiravibimbitayodayadsrichudonmishatsakalachandrataya
    cha sayam sandhyapranrittaharavadyagrihitakamsyataladvayeva
    samalakshyata nakalakshmih (Haravijya 19.5).

    This exacting musical orchestra, the vina played by the Lady of
    music,
    Sarasvati herself, the flute by Indra who excels, Brahma keeping time
    and Vishnu himself sounding the drum, is because Siva himself is an
    adept in all the musical instruments. In the Sivasahasranama, there
    is
    an elaboration of his musical accomplishments. He is described as
    Sarvaturyaninadi, he is also Vainavi, Panavi, Vini, Tali and Nali:
    vainavi panavi kalah kalakanthah katamkatah….. vini cha panavi tali
    nail kalikatus tatha sarvaturyaninadi cha sarvavyuapyaparigrahah
    (Lingamahapurana 1, 65, 11) tumbuvino mahakopah vamsavadi hyaninditah
    (Linegamahapurana 1, 65, 21) naikatanaratas svarah (Lingamahapurana
    1,
    65, 40). The commentary here explains tumbu vina as the vina provided
    with two gourds and popularly known as Rudra vina. Siva delights in
    innumerable murchhanas or tanas, and he is of the very nature of the
    svaras, not only udatta, anudatta, svarita, but the sangita svaras,
    the seven famous notes. Siva is also called Rathagita: akshayo
    rathagitas cha (Lingamahapurana 1, 65, 44). Ratha is Rathantarasama,
    by the chant of which he is invoked. Siva's fondness for Sama is very
    well known.

    associated with several rishis, like Patanjali, Vyaghrapada, Agastya,
    Durvasa, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, Sanatkumara, and others.
    Ramabhadra Dikshita gives a graphic description of the rasied foot of
    Siva in his bhujangatrasita mode of dance at Chidambaram. Siva's
    performance of karanas, making up angaharas, which go along with his
    whirling movements in forming mandalas, scatters a spray of water
    from
    the heavenly stream on his head, bathing and purifying, as it were,
    the entire space around, packed with spectators. The rapid swirl of
    his arms raises blasts, resounding in the caverns of the mountains of
    the quarters, while the light form his raised lotus foot, creates a
    halo of light around him, fully observed only by the side-long
    glances
    of Devi, whose dark eyes are twins it would seem of the blue lotus.
    As
    Siva dances with the universe as his theme, he almost lets fall the
    curtain of illusion, mystifying like Sambara's when soon he reveals
    the truth to Patanjali, Vyaghrapada and the other rishis, 'This is
    the
    illusion of the world as you see it here, and you will now know the
    eternal truth of the Supreme Brahman, immanent, beginningless,
    eternal, sentient and blissful, unending and monistic:
    mandalabhramishu kirnajahnavisikarasnapitachakravalakam
    bahuvegapavanavapuritakrandadantaradigadrikandaram
    uddhritaikacharanambujaprabhasrij –yamanapariveshavigraham
    utpalodarasahodarambikalochanantavalanaikagocharam sambariyavanikam
    athakshipan saprapanchamayanartanam sivah drag adarsayata gonikasutam
    vyaghrapadam itaran rishin api tena te svayam idam jagan mrisha
    janate
    sma paramarthatah punah brahma tat param Anadi
    sachchidanandalakshanam
    anantam advayam (Patanjalicharita 4. 70-73).

    Like a musician, who, during his song, stops for a while, and draws
    attention to the tala or the rhythm beat, Siva the great dancer,
    pauses for a while, to sound the drum himself in between, to show the
    correct adjustment when necessary. Kshemendra describes the patting
    of
    the universal lotus by Siva by a play on the world Pushkara, to
    suggest his beat of the drum tala. The concept is so lofty it makes
    even mountain meru only a small part of the universal lotus.
    Sportively the hand of the Lord of Pramathas (Siva) pats the
    universal
    lotus, thus signifying the proper musical time beat, the lotus which
    has the golden Menu mountain as its seed vessel,
  • I can visit the link, it works.
  • SPS Sir,

    My two cents worth

    =========================Quote============================
    I am YET to find mention of GOVINDARAJA in any of the ancient
    > Regligeous Text.. (yet to go through Kulasekara, tho" the quotes
    are
    > not mentioning of Govindaraja)..
    =======================Unquote===========================
    This goes well with my assumption that both the temples could have
    been different and merged later at the behest of the ruling King.

    Also in your previous message you wrote about Thirumangai Azhwar
    having sung Govindarajar in various forms and that there could have
    been more forms in the temple. I beg to differ here. It is but the
    nature of Azhwars to asscociate a Perumal of a Divyadesam with all
    the Avatharas etc. All the Azhwars have sung about Thiruvarangan as
    not only Krishna, but also as Rama, Trivikrama and many more. So
    just because the Azhwar sings about the Krishna form or any other
    form, necessarily does not mean there should have been more forms in
    a temple. An exception however, is the Parthasarathy Temple in
    ThiruvallikkENi (I hate to call this Triplicane). Thirumangai Azhwar
    has sung all the forms in this temple with explicit references. The
    pAsuram that I quoted for Thelliasingar in my earlier post refers to
    Azhagiyasingar or Thelliyasingar. Like wise, explicit pAsurams were
    sung for the main Perumal, Parthasarathy, Rama, Ranganatha and
    Varadaraja.

    With reference to the Kulothunga I being called as Kirumi KaNda
    Chozhan and Ramanuja fleeing Srirangam, I did read some articles
    yesterday. As pointed out clearly, Kulothunga I seems to have
    contributed to the Vishnu temples a lot. That leaves one wondering
    how could he have persecuted a Vaishnavite at the behest of Siva.
    Considering the fact that there was no need to account for something
    which had not occured, in the Guruparampara, P Sri Acharya, who
    wrote an account of Ramanuja observes that, while Kulothunga I was a
    stauch Saivite, with utmost tolerance towards all other religion and
    was espousing the growth of Saivism, he could have been worried
    about the prospects of Srivaishnavism, spearheading the race, under
    the able guidance of Ramanuja and hence in order to have a check,
    probably, could have summoned Ramanuja to his court for a debate.
    However when KoorathAzhwan spoiled this by appearing in the King's
    court in disguise, and also sarcastically pulling down Siva as God,
    he was irked by the sarcasm and in a fit of rage could have ordered
    to blind the eyes of Azhwan and Periya Nambi.

    Now, the question may arise as to why did Ramanuja flee the place at
    first, if the King was not so cruel. Again, probably the case was
    misrepresented to Ramanuja about the loyaties of the King and also
    it is recorded that Ramanuja was emotionally forced to flee by his
    sishyas.

    Even if the history has not recorded any kind of disease to
    Kulothunga I during his end days, it had indeed recorded that the
    Vishnuvardhana of Hoysalas invaded the Chola territory during the
    end times of Kulothunga I and hence a state of chaos prevailed
    during the time when Kulothunga I died, which is attributed as a
    divine punishment by the Vaishnavites.

    But the Koil Ozhugu, the temple chronicle of Srirangam, which mostly
    goes well with history, records that, after the death of Kirumikanda
    chozhan, his son Vikrama Chozhan who ascended the throne felt bad
    about the deed of his father (Kulothunga I???) and had even
    commented that "How did my dad ever think that by bringing down a
    temple how could Srivaishnavism be killed. Afterall it
    (Srivaishnavism) has two major pillars, by way of SriRamayana and
    Thiruvaimozhi to protect it". Interesting part is that this is
    recorded by some of the commentators to the Divyaprabhandhams as
    well. More interestingly the chronology is maintained that after
    Kulothunga I, his son Vikrama Chozha ascended the throne, which goes
    well with History, accurately.

    SriVaishnava Sri Krishnamachariar of Panchajanyam magazine, as
    quoted by you in your previous discussion opines in the same way.
    Rather I have copied him as it made more sense logically.

    In view of the above, we could not clearly discard the happening as
    fiction in my humble opinion.

    P Sri Acharya, goes on further to refer to the incident of
    Govindarajar being thrown into the sea by Kulothunga II and observes
    that Sadasiva Bandarathar, has refuted that Kulothuga II had
    comitted such an act, purely out of his love for the Chozha dynasty,
    while, the contemporary court poet Ottakutthar himself has recorded
    this incident in his ThakkayAga bharaNi, the song beautifully quoted
    below.

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