> > 2) Did some foreign traveller visit Tamil Nadu during that period and > made a record of that in foreign sources ? > > Hi Pandyan first I should appreciate the thorough scientific approach you have towards history. at the face of it dating is not readily available for many events as in european history. yesterday for instance was the day emperor Nero( of the fiddle fame) commited suicide in rome after being over thrown. (the fiddle was invented a millienieum later.) I too was shocked the first time when I heard how the date of RRc's death is calculated. its just the date after which his last stone edict appeared.
on foreign travellers we must have hundreds as the potting shreds and roman coins in arikamedu suggest but what we are looking for is someone who wrote it down right? Hsüan-tsang possibly visited the pallavas in 634 ad. then we have marco polo visiting madurai in1290 khusrau and wassaf came with the khilji armies and gave wonderful reports ibn battuta possibly visited tamilnadu in 1320 with the second turkish invasion. there are some excellent books about vijaynagar by european travellers.
however there seem to be no accounts during the chola times. or are yet to be found.
Do you mean to say it is pure specualation and the Cholas could have been from any century ?
Does it mean none of the inscription use any of the calendars like the Vikramaditya or Kali etc.
Which historian(Nilakanta Sastri?) then assigned Cholas to the currently accepted period and what was his/her reasoning ? If so any reference to his/her papers, maybe we can go over it?
there are dates for many important events. but lacunae exist and speculation is prevalent.
for example in 1850s the big temple was thought to have built by karikalan.
the first half of the 20th century was a golden period for chola research and a lot of things were put in place then all of it stopped. no new findings and no development .
if the later pandyas left no history recorded they have a reason. they were over run by the turks. for the cholas the reason seem to be pandyas. the pandyas having a vengeful heart for centuries reportedly destroyed every monument and melted every coin of the cholas they could lay their hands on.
If i'm sure, there comes some description about some chinese travellers to Lanka (with whom AM goes to see tha paintings). Any details could be fetched based on that?
How come the Turks skipped Cholanadu while they over ran Pandyanadu?
For whatever reason the Turks it seems did not stay back in Pandyanadu.
Other that Kovils(which is not touched) what other documented destruction exists of the Chola monuments by the Pandyas. Melting coin - melting metals is usual as metals were valuable and it was extensively recycled. The rivalary of the Tamil rulers is the history of the Tamilakam.
I have this impression that Tamil inscriptions specifically Chola inscriptions provide the backbone for South Indian historiography. So that is why I am interested in how they dated the Cholas? I am in search of the paper which defintely placed the Cholas in the currently accepted period. Maybe the cholas by Nilakanta sastri treats that - I do not know. Any information will be very helpful. Anybody who knows it and shares it will defintely do a great help to us newbies who are now looking at Tamil history. Infact uploading it will be even better.
What new development/information in the 20th century definitely turned the tide from earlier century ?
- > How come the Turks skipped Cholanadu while they over ran Pandyanadu? > >there was no chola nadu. pandyas ruled upto north tamilnadu. infact one of their capitals was at samaya puram trichy
For whatever reason the Turks it seems did not stay back in > Pandyanadu. > the first turk invasion 1314 led by malik kafur was a looting expedition. he made peace with yadavas, hoysalas etc just to loot tamilnadu. he left after a month the second invasion after a decade established a madurai sultanate which lasted some 50 years. they even minted coins. it was over thrown by the vijaynagar empire which installed the naiks.
> Other that Kovils(which is not touched) what other documented > destruction exists of the Chola monuments by the Pandyas. Melting > coin - melting metals is usual as metals were valuable and it was > extensively recycled. The rivalary of the Tamil rulers is the history > of the Tamilakam. > > I have this impression that Tamil inscriptions specifically Chola > inscriptions provide the backbone for South Indian historiography. So > that is why I am interested in how they dated the Cholas?
> > What new development/information in the 20th century definitely > turned the tide from earlier century ?
I think the discovery of three sets of copper plates like the thiruvalangadu cheppedukal, leyden plates etc changed our outlook of the cholas.
the Mahavamsa ( the chronicle of srilankan history) maintained by buddist monks is a wonderful and independant source which substantiates much of the facts. you could get to seem them in below links
Hi, > > This is not true. As for both early and later cholas, last 2 or 3 > decades of 20th century contributed more than the first half. many of > the theories put forth were disproved by new findings. > > Regards > Sheelu
Are you sure about this? Whatever Venkat said, I have heard from some of the eminent archelogists too!!!
to proceed on this discussion I think some of our group seniors have to tell us about, nilakanta sastri ( surprised there is no page on him in wikipedia)and also finding of the thiruvalangadu plates.
I would be interested in what findings happened in the last two decades. i am sure you could give us the details or a link to some website with the details.
Professor E. Hultzsch began collecting South Indian inscriptions systematically from the latter part of 1886 when he was appointed Epigraphist to the Government of Madras.
The earliest of the extant copperplate inscriptions date from the 10th century C.E. Of these, the Leyden plates, the Tiruvalangadu grant of Rajendra Chola I, the Anbil plates of Sundara Chola and the Kanyakumari inscription of Virarajendra Chola are the only epigraphical records discovered and published so far, that give genealogical lists of Chola kings.
The Thiruvalangadu copperplates discovered in 1905 C.E. is one of the largest so far recovered and contains 31 copper sheets. The Thiruvalangadu plates contain text written in Sanskrit and Tamil. These two seem to have been written at least a decade apart. These plates record a grant made to the shrine of the goddess at Tiruvalangadu by Rajendra Chola I. The list of the legendary Chola kings forms the preamble to the Sanskrit portion of these plates.
I am not sure how accurate astronomical data is for dating as an independent measure.As a supporting measure along with other dating methods I will defintely agree.
If you do not mind can you point one or two instances of calendar eras(Kali, Saka, Kollam, etc. Tamil years) mentioned in inscriptions. I will then try to get hold of the actual book. I am specifically looking for Raja Raja Chola or Rajendra Chola. I will be very much obliged.
( copy paste the above in your screen as one line and click on it)
this is an extract from the journal of the royal asiatic society...check the first article, shows how little was known about he cholas then...
1) interesting to note, there is no mention of our rrc. more talk of rajenra ( pg 21) 2) check pg 3 - reference to Naga nandhi - a jain - a learned and venerable man - was minister to the last three rajas!!could be an interesting thread. 3) pg 7, point 33 - vira pandiya is defeated and his ears cut off!! 4) pg 8, point 34, the mother of the defeated and fugitve pandiya raja, being a near relative of chola.... 5) same point as above - the senathipathi of the pandya raja, who was a near relation, came to the chola raja, his name was amara bhojangan - the king was pleased with him and gave him the command of his army... 6) attempt at chola genealogy - pg 26 and 27.
The first mission of Cholas of South India sent by Rajaraja I reached the Chinese Court in 1015 A.D. and the second that sent by Rajendra I arrived in 1033 A.D. (Nilakanda Sastri 1984:219).
The third mission was sent to Quang Zhou on the Southern Coast in 1020 A.D. But the envoy passed away before reaching the Chinese capital. Sung-Shih, the official annals of the Sung dynasty, records another mission to China from the Chola country named Ti-hua-Chia-lo arriving in 1077 A.D. and this kingâs name has taken as âdevakuloâ representing the King Kulothunga I (Karashima 1995:15). The Tamil inscription dated 1281 recording the establishment of a Siva temple for the health of Yuan King and the frequency of arrivals of the missions from San-fo-Chi in the Chinese sources show the great tendency and their settlements testifies to the vigorous Hindu cultural activities who crossed the Ocean to Southeast and beyond during the medieval periods.
> > It seems Venkatesh is so sure that 90% of rajaraja's life is > not > documented. May i know your effort on what/where all you > have > searched or referred for answers to your questions before > coming to > such conclusion? > >
Hi perhaps you are right and I am wrong.the answers must be in places i havent even heard of possibly. I am not an historian as would be evident from my mails but as a lay man all I want are plain biographical answers .
like details on birth, death, wives, battles on RR where could I get them. i am literally tired of looking in to epigraphy mentioning grants to the temples.
Thanks Sheelu, venketesh, Sivapathasekaran and others
Maybe a request needs to be put to TN CM so that if there is copyright restriction the Govt can buy and upload it on the internet for general public availability.
Sheelu - How can I get the materials you mentioned? Are they available in CD? Again how did the historian think of assigning the chola to around 10th century - some kind of chalukya-chola or pallava-chola synchronism?
I think a good database also need to be prepared with raw inscriptions data instead of as interpreted by the historians/archaeologist.
Something like incription number(id),name of the kings whether rajkesari or parakesari, if actual king name used, any astronomical informations,other keywords etc.
It should be made indexable and searchable. I know it is pure grunt work and does not need that much intellectualism but the payoff will be immense.
It should be something like a survey work done during college days.
Need to check which of the three emissary it was ... It was not ill treatment persay but just a mention on the chola state as a step lower than the status lower accorded to srivijaya ( like the 21 gun salute thread ) or was it being referred to as a fiduciary of srivijaya. Need to check. Reverting